CN South Bend/Flint Sub

[NickThatRailfan]

So I am kinda confused I figured all the train symbols through Battle Creek and came up with a total of 91 which seems kinda odd but then I have railfanned that line and seen 7 trains in 4 hours 2 trains in 6 hours and once 11 trains in 5 hours so I honestly dont know it could be right

[SD80MAC]

There might in theory be 91 different symbols (which seems ridiculously high), but you are not going to see anywhere near that on the Flint or South Bend Subs. 20 trains in a 24 hour period would be an extremely busy day on both of those lines.

[NickThatRailfan]

There might in theory be 91 different symbols (which seems ridiculously high), but you are not going to see anywhere near that on the Flint or South Bend Subs. 20 trains in a 24 hour period would be an extremely busy day on both of those lines.

Idk I have a friend who lives in Battle Creek and he said a typical day sees 20-25 in the day and 30 in the night

[David Lang]

Post all 91 symbols and we can begin an analysis to determine current symbols vs. discontinued/no longer active symbols.

Remember too that while we may have 15-20 trains per day on the South Bend/Flint Subs, the total number of active symbols will be more than that due to the fact that not all symbols run every day. Many trains are indeed daily, but there are also those that run as needed. A good example of this M356 and S756. These are symbols that run on the South Bend, Flint, and Holly Subs, (and shoreline sub for S756), but only run as needed (more precisely, only run once and a while), but are still active symbols.

[GTW6401]

No need to post any symbols, because they are already available. Focus on the daily jobs, then figure what times they are running.

[MQT1223]

There might in theory be 91 different symbols (which seems ridiculously high), but you are not going to see anywhere near that on the Flint or South Bend Subs. 20 trains in a 24 hour period would be an extremely busy day on both of those lines.

Idk I have a friend who lives in Battle Creek and he said a typical day sees 20-25 in the day and 30 in the night

You also have to remember that there is a second rail line in Battle Creek with its own traffic, so he might be looping all of that in together.

[NickThatRailfan]

There might in theory be 91 different symbols (which seems ridiculously high), but you are not going to see anywhere near that on the Flint or South Bend Subs. 20 trains in a 24 hour period would be an extremely busy day on both of those lines.

Idk I have a friend who lives in Battle Creek and he said a typical day sees 20-25 in the day and 30 in the night

You also have to remember that there is a second rail line in Battle Creek with its own traffic, so he might be looping all of that in together.

Second rail line? Where?

[AARR]

CN and NS both have lines in Battle Creek and Amtrak operates on both of them too.

You also have to remember that there is a second rail line in Battle Creek with its own traffic, so he might be looping all of that in together.

Second rail line? Where?

[NickThatRailfan]

CN and NS both have lines in Battle Creek and Amtrak operates on both of them too.

You also have to remember that there is a second rail line in Battle Creek with its own traffic, so he might be looping all of that in together.

Second rail line? Where?

Yes but they both feed off onto the CN just before the Amtrak Station

[MQT1223]

CN and NS both have lines in Battle Creek and Amtrak operates on both of them too.

Second rail line? Where?

Yes but they both feed off onto the CN just before the Amtrak Station

Those are the two lines...

[CSXBOY]

20 trains a day give or take seem to be a good estimate on the Flint Sub between Durand and Battle Creek. Ain't no way theres 91 trains a day. This isn't the the 1980s and early 90s. A lot of traffic was lost over the years including coal, auto, and even intermodal was lost. I say 20 trains in a 24 hour period. Plus since 2000, CN started single tracking the line. There's no way 91 trains run on a single main track. It has to be double tracked or else there would be increased delays and capacity wouldn't be enough. Not even 91 trains a day go through Fostoria Ohio these days. Despite all of this, the CN is still the best you're gonna from railfanning in Michigan unless you're into shortlines. I still liked doing the flint sub when I did it the few times I did it this past summer. You're gonna need patience railfanning anywhere in Michigan.

[NickThatRailfan]

20 trains a day give or take seem to be a good estimate on the Flint Sub between Durand and Battle Creek. Ain't no way theres 91 trains a day. This isn't the the 1980s and early 90s. A lot of traffic was lost over the years including coal, auto, and even intermodal was lost. I say 20 trains in a 24 hour period. Plus since 2000, CN started single tracking the line. There's no way 91 trains run on a single main track. It has to be double tracked or else there would be increased delays and capacity wouldn't be enough. Not even 91 trains a day go through Fostoria Ohio these days. Despite all of this, the CN is still the best you're gonna from railfanning in Michigan unless you're into shortlines. I still liked doing the flint sub when I did it the few times I did it this past summer. You're gonna need patience railfanning anywhere in Michigan.

I dont belive 20 beecuase when my buddy and I went out on the Flint Sub we were out from 8am to 6pm we ended up seeing 21 trains total 3 in Battle Creek 18 in Bellevue and that was in a span of give or take 8-10ish hours

[DaveO]

"Plus since 2000, CN started single tracking the line."?????

part of train count going down is CN using land barges.

[chapmaja]

Let's go through the symbols that would be through or to Battle Creek. This is 23 trains.

Starting with the Ex-GTW Locals we have
L500
L501
L52061
L52161

Priority - Manifest / Automotive
E21651
E21841
E27091
E27191
E27531
E27691
E27531
E27691
E28091
E28931
E28671

Manifest Long Haul
M32241
M39491
M39671
M39731
M39931

Short Haul Manifest
A49131
A49291

Ontario Locals
L50131
L50531

Now, lets look at other trains operating on the line between South Bend and Flint which don't actually service Battle Creek but appear on the Flint or South Bend Subdivisions (11 Trains)

Locals / Switchers
R933
L54961
L507
L508
L514
L533
R943
R944
Q11691

E25161
E29671

Trains which may touch the Flint Sub on 1 end, but not over a substantial portion of the subdivision. (Possibly on very east end of Flint Sub at Port Huron-maybe not, not sure of dividing line on Subs and if these run the Holly Subdivision or the Mt. Clemens Subdivision) (5 trains)

E23131
E25161
E27121
M38461
M38531




Possible No Longer Active - Still listed on Symbols Page (2)
C71161
C71291

The trains to HESR now have a strike through and are listed as abolished.


This doesn't include the 8 Amtrak Trains which use the joint trackage in Battle Creek, nor the NS B57 which uses the joint trackage.

[AARR]

Thank you for printing them here. Now, we just have to figure out the frequency these trains run.

Let's go through the symbols that would be through or to Battle Creek. This is 23 trains.

[NickThatRailfan]

Thank you for printing them here. Now, we just have to figure out the frequency these trains run.

Let's go through the symbols that would be through or to Battle Creek. This is 23 trains.

Lol... I have all the train symbols here
S756-81
E274-91
E275-51
E289-31
G878-41
G875-31
L597-31
M301-31
M302-31
M302-41
M303-31
M313-31
M314-41
M317-31
M318-41
M369-21
M394-91
M395-31
M396-71
M396-31
A491-31
A492-91
L505-31
A450-61
E251-61
E280-91
E296-71
L507-61
L508-61
M371-81
A451-61
E216-51
E218-41
E271-61
L500-61
L501-31
L501-61
L520-61
L521-61
M322-41
M348-41
M371-31
M393-31
E270-91
E276-91
E278-91
AMTK 350
AMTK 351
AMTK 352
AMTK 353
AMTK 354
AMTK 355
AMTK 358
AMTK 359
AMTK 364
AMTK 365
B731-31
G874-41
B731-11
Q101-31
Q102-51
Q105-21
Q106-51
Q109-21
Q116-51
Q119-61
Q122-91
Q123-11
Q148-91
Q149-31
Q180-51
Q183-31
Q185-21
Q186-51
Q189-61
Q190-51
Z115-32
Z111-31
Z107-31
Z148-91
Z149-21
NS B33
NS B34
NS B57

If I count correctly thats 84 train symbols (I counted wrong the first time)

[~Z~]

Just for some clarification for Nick, there's a CN yard in Battle Creek. Some trains run just from Chicago area and terminate at Battle Creek, some run from Battle Creek and go east only, so one wouldn't see them at the Amtrak station in BC. Quite a few stop to work BC and continue on. Being downtown, you'll also see the Amtraks and an NS train. As a general gist, I believe the other commenters 20 to max 30 trains sounds accurate. May I suggest watching and rewinding through the MP205 webcam that's a bit east of Battle Creek. Turn it on at 9am, and rewind to 9pm and count, then do it again at 9pm to rewind to 9am and get a 24 hour count. Add Amtrak+one out and back NS train and you'll have a reasonable count.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZMSS1-aelKQ

[NickThatRailfan]

Just for some clarification for Nick, there's a CN yard in Battle Creek. Some trains run just from Chicago area and terminate at Battle Creek, some run from Battle Creek and go east only, so one wouldn't see them at the Amtrak station in BC. Quite a few stop to work BC and continue on. Being downtown, you'll also see the Amtraks and an NS train. As a general gist, I believe the other commenters 20 to max 30 trains sounds accurate. May I suggest watching and rewinding through the MP205 webcam that's a bit east of Battle Creek. Turn it on at 9am, and rewind to 9pm and count, then do it again at 9pm to rewind to 9am and get a 24 hour count. Add Amtrak+one out and back NS train and you'll have a reasonable count.

Okay but also I have watched railfanning videos from BC this guy was there for 12 hours in August in 2022 and in that 11 hours he saw 20 trains

[~Z~]

11 ≠ 24. If you want a accurate 24 hour aka 1 day count, need to observe for 24 hours. I turned on the Charlotte webcam to verify the link, and a train showed up within a minute. By your math, that'd be 1 train per minute * 60 mins per hour * 24 hours per day = 1440 trains per day.
since you are basing your train count from YouTube, how about you watch MP205 webcam and get more real life experiments to validate your hypothesis.

[NickThatRailfan]

11 ≠ 24. If you want a accurate 24 hour aka 1 day count, need to observe for 24 hours. I turned on the Charlotte webcam to verify the link, and a train showed up within a minute. By your math, that'd be 1 train per minute * 60 mins per hour * 24 hours per day = 1440 trains per day.
since you are basing your train count from YouTube, how about you watch MP205 webcam and get more real life experiments to validate your hypothesis.

Okay and I have another person to prove my hypothesis a buddy who lives in Battle Creek on the CN who knows CN Railroad Employees and the engineer for the NS Locals that runs to BC