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Interesting information about the types of rail in the Ludington yard and their plan to replace the stick rail south of Baldwin with CWR. Iirc, the welded rail goes north from GR only as far as the hot box detector at Bitely, but this was all laid during the Chessie System era and is probably due for some repair as well. I’m sure the jointed rail south of Baldwin is of PM vintage.

https://www.shorelinemedia.net/ludingto ... ium=social

The CWR is constant until somewhere around Bitely, and then it is only in the curves north of there, IIRC

The stick rail segments need some lovin' for sure, MQT both under independent ownership and RA/G&W has not put in the required maintenance to keep stick rail trackage up to 30-mph scratch reliably under the tonnage they run. For several years now it seems like they're basically going from one 10-mph slow order to the next over the whole railroad.

GP30M4216 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:20 pm

Interesting information about the types of rail in the Ludington yard and their plan to replace the stick rail south of Baldwin with CWR. Iirc, the welded rail goes north from GR only as far as the hot box detector at Bitely, but this was all laid during the Chessie System era and is probably due for some repair as well. I’m sure the jointed rail south of Baldwin is of PM vintage.

https://www.shorelinemedia.net/ludingto ... ium=social

Would this hotbox detector put out a feed on a scanner? Didn't know a detector was up that way.

Seems like MQT has let most of their system go on purpose to possibly win this grant?

There were a few DD's along the Baldwin sub during CSX times. The 2005 timetable lists them at Bailey, White Cloud, Bitely, and west of Baldwin (Wingleton). I'm not sure if MQT has maintained them in operation or if they broadcast.

There was a derailment south of Baldwin near the Pere Marquette River in the early to mid 1990s which resulted in the extensive rebuilding of the track and roadbed for several hundred feet, and that rail was welded. The rest of the curve work north of Bitely was done somewhat more recently. I checked out some of the stick rail south of Baldwin on my last visit to the area. 1944 Illinois rail at Big Star Lake Road, 1947 Steelton rail a little north of there. Rail a crossing south was earlier, 1937, I think. Various compromise joints etc. to be found, so obviously it's a mix of stuff.

Rail on the Ludington Sub west of Baldwin was heavier as that line was rebuilt extensively to support carferry traffic.

GP30M4216 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:53 pm

Rail on the Ludington Sub west of Baldwin was heavier as that line was rebuilt extensively to support carferry traffic.

But there hasn't been ferry traffic in quite a while though

Talk wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:55 am

GP30M4216 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:53 pm

Rail on the Ludington Sub west of Baldwin was heavier as that line was rebuilt extensively to support carferry traffic.

But there hasn't been ferry traffic in quite a while though

There was a lot then, though

Talk wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:55 am

GP30M4216 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:53 pm

Rail on the Ludington Sub west of Baldwin was heavier as that line was rebuilt extensively to support carferry traffic.

But there hasn't been ferry traffic in quite a while though

Ferry Traffic for decades was HUGE on that line. When the Ludington Sub was abandoned it was almost all welded rail with CTC... that's not a line that was let go with nothing left. It was mainly a trunk line with little online business however which is what led to its demise.

MQT1223 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:47 pm

Talk wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:55 am

GP30M4216 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:53 pm

...When the Ludington Sub was abandoned it was almost all welded rail with CTC...

Per a 1987 track chart, the only welded rail on the Ludington Sub was between Mershon and Lawndale, less than 3 miles, and about 5 miles from Midland eastward. The rest all the way to Ludington was jointed. It's crazy how some 32 miles of the stretch between Midland and Baldwin was reballasted in 1986, less than a year before the through freights were pulled off, but corporate "strategy" can change in a heartbeat.

I remember back in March of 2012 i chased Z151 from Baldwin to Grand Rapids i paced next to the train basically all the way and the only times i remember the train slowing down north of Grant was at White Cloud for the big curve and at Newago over the bridge and up Newago Hill i haven't done that since then so it must've got alot worse since.

Steve B wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:50 pm

MQT1223 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:47 pm

Talk wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:55 am

...When the Ludington Sub was abandoned it was almost all welded rail with CTC...

Per a 1987 track chart, the only welded rail on the Ludington Sub was between Mershon and Lawndale, less than 3 miles, and about 5 miles from Midland eastward. The rest all the way to Ludington was jointed. It's crazy how some 32 miles of the stretch between Midland and Baldwin was reballasted in 1986, less than a year before the through freights were pulled off, but corporate "strategy" can change in a heartbeat.

In May of 1986 i rode my ten speed bike from Midland to Coleman right next to the Ludington Sub i remember it being in pristine condition i was surprised at how quick it fell out of favor the CSX integration came in June of 1986 so they where probably looking at the numbers and they figured out it wasn't profitable so the end came fairly quickly.

penn central wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm

Steve B wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:50 pm

MQT1223 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:47 pm

In May of 1986 i rode my ten speed bike from Midland to Coleman right next to the Ludington Sub i remember it being in pristine condition i was surprised at how quick it fell out of favor the CSX integration came in June of 1986 so they where probably looking at the numbers and they figured out it wasn't profitable so the end came fairly quickly.

That must have been a really cool ride. I bet the record-breaking Tittabawassee floods in Sept. 1986 also played a part in the decision to abandon.

The decision to abandon had SOMETHING to do with the fact that the ferries carried around 30 some cars. There were thirty crewman on the boats. They hauled loads AND empties and empties were free wheelers. Yet they took up the same amount of room. When the interchanges got MUCH better in Chitown THATS when the boats became redundant. Costs, money and costs, $$$....the only thing that mattered.

Doktor No wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:04 pm

The decision to abandon had SOMETHING to do with the fact that the ferries carried around 30 some cars. There were thirty crewman on the boats. They hauled loads AND empties and empties were free wheelers. Yet they took up the same amount of room. When the interchanges got MUCH better in Chitown THATS when the boats became redundant. Costs, money and costs, $$$....the only thing that mattered.

Yes, I'm very familiar with that history. I just thought it was intriguing that CSX reballasted 32 of the Midland-Baldwin miles in 1986, long after it gave away the ferries ($1 each!) and less than a year before deciding to abandon. Substantial maintenance done by local management because a future was assumed with the remaining traffic, until the men in Richmond/Jacksonville soon announced there wasn't a future.

DOW TRAIN and other trains with DOW CARS.

Doktor No wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:06 am

DOW TRAIN and other trains with DOW CARS.

Yes, I knew it was Dow traffic. I'm sure the numbers were profitable if looked at one way, and not if it was spinned another way.

As a dispatcher during that period, I got to see it all go down. I would comment further, but I suppose all the non-railroaders on here would just say I was being a disgruntled employee. I'll just move along now!

C&O Dispatcher wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:38 pm

As a dispatcher during that period, I got to see it all go down. I would comment further, but I suppose all the non-railroaders on here would just say I was being a disgruntled employee. I'll just move along now!

Would you mind sharing? Nothing wrong with being disgruntled and honestly, I'm curious haha

"Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know." Lao Tzu, Tao Ti Ching

Chessie management saw the future of railroads as being relegated to carriers of bulk commodities. They were shaping the Chessie map to that vision. During the Conrail bidding war a CSX manager commented that if Chessie had not made some of the abandonments that it did, the Conrail buyout would have played out much differently. The 70's were also a decade of traffic loss, inflation and high capital costs. A common joke among railroaders of the time was if you station or office was repainted it would close within the year

The guys I knew who started on the NYC, PRR and Erie in the 60's spoke of what apeared to be an effort to drive away business. I didn't know any C&O/Chessie people. A first person viewpoint would be interesting... disgruntled or not.

The Chinese also say, "The outsider sees most of the game".

PatAzo wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:06 am

Chessie management saw the future of railroads as being relegated to carriers of bulk commodities. They were shaping the Chessie map to that vision. During the Conrail bidding war a CSX manager commented that if Chessie had not made some of the abandonments that it did, the Conrail buyout would have played out much differently. The 70's were also a decade of traffic loss, inflation and high capital costs. A common joke among railroaders of the time was if you station or office was repainted it would close within the year

This abandonment was instigated in the late 1980s...well into the railroad renaissance post-Staggers in 1980. This was just a major realignment away from antiquated ferries to just stuffing everything onto as few lines as possible, and that meant Chicago.