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Is it true that the Palace would be served by an auto company heard alot of rumors when the circus was in town that General Motors is doing something to it. Then later I think in December I heard my dad say this is the last season for the Detroit pistons. So what exactly is going on? Will this mean more trains on the Holly sub and possibly the Shoreline sub?

There has been nothing publicly revealed about plans for the site once the Pistons leave aside from that it seems likely that the site will have warehouse space and light industrial like the surrounding neighborhood, and the site has no access to rail as it is.

Piston's returning to Fort Wayne ? I wish...

I'm more concerned that CN will give up on this last stub of the old PO&N, ex-GTW Cass City Sub now that there will no longer be a need to support the circus train in Auburn Hills. It doesn't look like the GM Orion plant will be shipping by rail on-site any time soon (currently dray their finished vehicles to a CSX loadout in New Boston, MI - just southwest of DTW metro airport) and the switch to Powers Distributing has been pulled for years. I'd hate to see the rail go but the question is whether CN will bother holding on to this short branch from Pontiac considering all the other secondary lines pulled up over the past 20 years (e.g. Romeo and Jackson subs, Flint old main, etc.) by CN.

I doubt that CN was leaving it in for the circus train. I'd welcome any corrections, but I'm guessing that as long as the Orion Assembly is open, the branch will stay in place. Don't think for a second that CN has concluded that there is no possibility it will serve the plant again. There is far too much potential money at stake.

The Romeo and Jackson Subs didn't have any large active auto plants, and they had many more miles of useless track than the Orion branch does. The Flint old main remnant that served Delphi West was abandoned because they converted to making plastic gas tanks, whose shipment had switched to 100% truck. Or maybe it was because a transload was set up at Corunna Yard, I can't remember. At any rate, in the final years Delphi West was a tiny operation compared to Orion Assembly, and the last plant closed in 2004.

I'd guess that Ford Romeo stopped using rail when it stopped being a tractor plant?

Steve B wrote:I doubt that CN was leaving it in for the circus train. I'd welcome any corrections, but I'm guessing that as long as the Orion Assembly is open, the branch will stay in place. Don't think for a second that CN has concluded that there is no possibility it will serve the plant again. There is far too much potential money at stake.

The Romeo and Jackson Subs didn't have any large active auto plants, and they had many more miles of useless track than the Orion branch does. The Flint old main remnant that served Delphi West was abandoned because they converted to making plastic gas tanks, whose shipment had switched to 100% truck. Or maybe it was because a transload was set up at Corunna Yard, I can't remember. At any rate, in the final years Delphi West was a tiny operation compared to Orion Assembly, and the last plant closed in 2004.

Is this the line by Great Lakes Crossing?

I'm pretty sure rail service ended before the plant was closed, although I've been wrong before.

MSchwiebert wrote:I'd guess that Ford Romeo stopped using rail when it stopped being a tractor plant?

Steve B wrote:I doubt that CN was leaving it in for the circus train. I'd welcome any corrections, but I'm guessing that as long as the Orion Assembly is open, the branch will stay in place. Don't think for a second that CN has concluded that there is no possibility it will serve the plant again. There is far too much potential money at stake.

The Romeo and Jackson Subs didn't have any large active auto plants, and they had many more miles of useless track than the Orion branch does. The Flint old main remnant that served Delphi West was abandoned because they converted to making plastic gas tanks, whose shipment had switched to 100% truck. Or maybe it was because a transload was set up at Corunna Yard, I can't remember. At any rate, in the final years Delphi West was a tiny operation compared to Orion Assembly, and the last plant closed in 2004.

Correct, Ford Engine in Romeo never shipped by rail. Romeo was required to improve the roads (including building the Van Dyke Highway) as a stipulation for Ford investing in the transformation from tractors to engines. Also, the Ford Gen. Mgr. had bad experiences with rail service and was willing to spend money to remove the spurs into the plant and convert to trucks (although they use intermodal).

Ford Engine employed around 1600 until the recession of 2007-08 when they dropped to around 550 and have not increased since. Unless things have changed they build 8 cylinder engines.

MSchwiebert wrote:I'd guess that Ford Romeo stopped using rail when it stopped being a tractor plant?

MQT1223 wrote:Is this the line by Great Lakes Crossing?

Yes, see the map: https://goo.gl/maps/NDGjzq4db652

I believe they still occasionally take the local that works in Pontiac up to Orion if they need to run around their train.

TrainStuff13 wrote:I believe they still occasionally take the local that works in Pontiac up to Orion if they need to run around their train.

Trains rarely go past the scrap yard anymore. A derail is at Collier Road.

A couple backup moves on the wye off Walton Boulevard gets everything in position.

~Z~ wrote:

MQT1223 wrote:Is this the line by Great Lakes Crossing?

Yes, see the map: https://goo.gl/maps/NDGjzq4db652

I never once saw a train on this line and it seems photo's and video's aren't that common yet the track is in great shape. Always wanted to catch a train splitting that huge intersection by the mall.

While it may seem the Orion is dead, it is not. The big sticking point is how long of a commitment the sides want. CN wants long term as they would have to have autoracks built, GM wants short term as they like flexibility. No one budges, they walk away, and the cycle repeats itself. Orion yard is a sad shell of what it used to be, but aside from needing new ties, everything else is good to go, crossings have to be maintained, and have been, and there is enough track out there in the yard to make it work without building more.

Well, I hope we'll come to see racks moving out of Orion again one day - especially as this would be the closest active rail to my home. I suppose when the dray and reload costs to-from New Boston become excessive perhaps GM will come to terms with CN. We will see I guess.

The rail line in question seems to stub end at a large industry at the end of the existing trackage, yet I'm fairly sure it went farther then that. Where did the old PO&N go and when was it abandoned?

A quick search on google maps also reveals no obvious ROW visible from above.

MQT1223 wrote:The rail line in question seems to stub end at a large industry at the end of the existing trackage, yet I'm fairly sure it went farther then that. Where did the old PO&N go and when was it abandoned?

A quick search on google maps also reveals no obvious ROW visible from above.

I can't speak for when it was abandoned, but it went up to Oxford, through Dryden, Imlay City, Clifford, Cass City, Pigeon, and ending at Caseville on Saginaw Bay.

MQT1223 wrote:The rail line in question seems to stub end at a large industry at the end of the existing trackage, yet I'm fairly sure it went farther then that. Where did the old PO&N go and when was it abandoned?

A quick search on google maps also reveals no obvious ROW visible from above.

It's been gone long enough that more than a quick search is necessary. I seem to recall that much of the south end is a trail. The north end is visible in many places, but the only remaining trackage is in Pigeon. The RoW runs east to Imlay City, then back west as it runs north. The stretch from Imlay City to Kings Mill was supposedly used for new engineer training before it was removed. It's easier to see as you go north than it is at the north end of the existing trackage.

It's been a few years, but a group of us did a road rally to see what's left of the line back in 2010 or so...

GTW also went from Cass City to Bad Axe. That portion was abandoned in 1951.

Pigeon to Cass City was abandoned in 1984, and the remaining trackage in 1986.

The Pontiac to Oxford portion of the line was busy from 1950-1970 with gravel and aggregate traffic. The GTW hauled gravel from Oxford to Mt. Clemens for the runway expansion at Selfridge in the 1950s. Most of the gravel traffic had shifted to trucks by the 1970s.

I never once saw a train on this line and it seems photo's and video's aren't that common yet the track is in great shape. Always wanted to catch a train splitting that huge intersection by the mall.

I photographed this line a few times in 2016. The summer months work best for photography as the train tends to run in the evening.

GTW6401 wrote:GTW also went from Cass City to Bad Axe. That portion was abandoned in 1951.

Pigeon to Cass City was abandoned in 1984, and the remaining trackage in 1986.

The Pontiac to Oxford portion of the line was busy from 1950-1970 with gravel and aggregate traffic. The GTW hauled gravel from Oxford to Mt. Clemens for the runway expansion at Selfridge in the 1950s. Most of the gravel traffic had shifted to trucks by the 1970s.

I never once saw a train on this line and it seems photo's and video's aren't that common yet the track is in great shape. Always wanted to catch a train splitting that huge intersection by the mall.

I photographed this line a few times in 2016. The summer months work best for photography as the train tends to run in the evening.

What's a typical train? Auto racks with a standard cab EMD set?