Amtrak Accident

[PerRock]

The big problem with going off what the engineer says is that he may say "I received my order, the signal was green, so I continued on." When in actuality the signal was not, and he read the wrong one (yes I know it wasn't green, I just used it for arguments sake." It could have also been that the dispatcher gave him the OK when it wasn't or any number of things.

peter

[amtrak1007]

The signaling system is track condition (ie occupancy) AND permission to proceed. the dispatcher may "clear a route", but the track may be already occupied, so the Engineer will see a less favorable indication.

[J T]

The big problem with going off what the engineer says is that he may say "I received my order, the signal was green, so I continued on." When in actuality the signal was not, and he read the wrong one (yes I know it wasn't green, I just used it for arguments sake." It could have also been that the dispatcher gave him the OK when it wasn't or any number of things.

peter

Exactly what I was eluding to earlier with the "absolute truth" comment. Fortunately, the engineer DID tell the truth.

Just heard on the news: Engineer admitted to be going over the restricted speed.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Just heard on the news: Engineer admitted to be going over the restricted speed.

Based on comments I've seen and heard in the past, I've gotten the impression that speeding to make up time in some instances is ok- as long as you don't get caught.

Assuming that this is still practiced, (and although this is mostly going to be speculation) what're the chances that the engineer is doing something he's done before without getting caught (probably multiple times)?

Also, from what I saw on the news, the train was running late to begin with...

[~Z~]

One item that crossed my mind is about the calling of signals on NS's line. I know the crew of the NS train ahead of Amtrak was stopped, therefore not calling signals, but couldn't they have heard that Amtrak was calling signals behind them? Might have been a good idea to radio to Amtrak to correct them on their last signal if they called it out incorrectly.
Who know though, maybe Amtrak called it correctly and was just going faster than what they thought the signal meant anyway.

[Norm]

Assuming that this is still practiced, (and although this is mostly going to be speculation) what're the chances that the engineer is doing something he's done before without getting caught (probably multiple times)?

Probably, speeding to make up lost time is a way of life for the Amtrak engineers.

I would, however, like to comment on his ethics, assuming that what I read here is correct.

Being the senior member of this group, I would like to think I have experience worth passing on to others. Take what I have to say with a grain of salt and apply it to yourself as you think it should be.

I applaud the engineer for his honesty. It takes intestinal fortitude to fess up when you have made a mistake. I have found, through the course of life, that if you admit you were wrong, that the punishment is usually much less severe than if you try to weasel out.

Yep, there were days when I was "bulletproof". Age combined with experience has taught me different.

Just ramblings from the "old fart" of the group.

[odave]

I agree - that kind of personal accountability is a breath of fresh air in the culture we seem to be sliding into these days...

[Raildudes dad]

There's not a lot of reason to deny what the speed recorder is going to indicate.

[R Bedell]

Although the Amtrak Train was going faster than it was suppose to be, I can't help but think this accident would have occurred anyway. Perhaps a lower speed impact with less damage. In my view, this will come down to signaling, authorizations, or human error.

[amtrak1007]

Amtrak train was speeding when it crashed, probe finds

* Story Highlights
* Engineer tells investigators he knew limit was 15 mph, but sped up anyway
* Signal warned Amtrak train to slow down because another train was ahead
* Engineer applied brakes and skidded 400 to 500 feet before hitting freight train
* Friday's collision sent 71 people to hospitals; investigation continues

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- An Amtrak train was going about 25 mph over the speed limit -- despite a signal indicating another train was on the same track -- moments before it hit a stationary freight train, injuring dozens of people, federal officials said Sunday.

The Amtrak train's engineer told investigators he realized the speed limit was 15 mph in that stretch of track but accelerated to 40 mph anyway, National Transportation Safety Board Vice Chairman Robert Sumwalt told reporters.

The speed limit on that portion of track, which is usually 79 mph, had been reduced to 15 mph by a red and yellow "restricting signal," indicating another train was on the track, the official said.

Moments after accelerating, the engineer noticed the freight train ahead and applied his emergency brakes; the passenger train then skidded about 400 to 500 feet and slammed into the freight train at about 35 mph, Sumwalt said.

Sumwalt declined to assess blame or say human error caused Friday's accident, and he did not say why the engineer might have been speeding.

"Part of our investigation is to figure out why that signal [indicating the 15 mph limit] was not obeyed," Sumwalt said.

Federal authorities on Sunday wrapped up two days of investigations, which included interviews with crew members and reviews of data from event recorders, as they tried to determine why two trains ended up on the same track.

Investigators will try to reconstruct the crash and may dismantle the locomotive to figure out what went wrong, Sumwalt said.

The analysis will likely take months.

"We're not here to point fingers," Sumwalt said. "We're here to find out what happened so we can keep it from happening again. ... This is the very beginning of this investigation."

Most of the 187 passengers on board the Pere Marquette traveling to Chicago from Grand Rapids, Michigan, walked away without major injuries from the impact, which catapulted people from their seats.

The accident sent 71 people to hospitals. Three people -- one Amtrak crew member and two passengers -- were hospitalized overnight and released Saturday. PhotoSee photos of the rescue efforts »

A police surveillance camera recorded the accident, and the NTSB will review the footage, Sumwalt said. Investigators didn't plan to make that footage immediately available to the media, he said.

The accident caused $1.3 million in damage, federal authorities said. Most damage to the passenger train was concentrated at its engine, where two of the five Amtrak crew members were, authorities said.

The train's three double-decker passenger cars remained upright.

The Norfolk Southern freight train was traveling from Elizabeth, New Jersey, to Chicago, and neither of two workers aboard was hurt.

-----------

Looks like from this report that it was a willful disobedience of the signal. I would really like to see why the engineer felt they could hot rod it....

[PAT.C]

NORM, YOU REFER TO YOURSELF AS THE THE "OLD FART" OF THE GROUP AND I WILL HONOR THAT TITLE AS I'M ONLY 61 [2-9-46]. BUT I WILL NOT TOLERATE ANYONE TRYING TO INFRINGE ON MY TITLE--- I AM ....THE IMMATURE OLD FART !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PULL MY FINGER. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PAT.C]

NORM, SOMEDAY LET'S GET TOGETHER SO U CAN SHOW ME HOW TO USE MY D50. US OLD FARTS GOTTA STICK TOGETHER AND SHOW THESE SNOT NOSED PUNKS HOW THINGS ARE DONE .

[R Bedell]

amtrak1007:

Thanks for posting the update. Well more information is coming out and it kinda looks like engineer error.

The sweetness of speeding and making up time, will soon be diminished by the lack of a job, Lawyers, and law suits. Too bad....

[SD80MAC]

On Wood TV 8 this morning the train was reported to have been going 40 mph, then having slowed to 35 mph at the point of impact. This would show that the engineer at least applied the brakes. I had heard it was only going around 20 mph when it hit, and that there was no effort to brake. Who's right [/b]

[rsinoms]

On Wood TV 8 this morning the train was reported to have been going 40 mph, then having slowed to 35 mph at the point of impact. This would show that the engineer at least applied the brakes. I had heard it was only going around 20 mph when it hit, and that there was no effort to brake. Who's right [/b]

When i watched the crash with some friends we took our knowledge of the cars and the time the video displayed to come up with the rate of 50-60 ft persecond which equates to about 40 MPH. Now if you watch the video you will notice that after the train makes impact it deccelerates beace of the engine pileing up on the freight train in front of it. as soon as the back truck hits the freight traun the train jolts suddenly. In other words the final jolt that rocked everyone was at the force of a 15-20 mph collision and thus the engine took the brunt of the accident while those in the cars escaped woth minor injuries. Had the engine not have rode up on to the other train and just hit it at the speed of 40 mph the injuries would have been more serious and maybe a fatalaty would have occured. Sio thank god the engine acted like it did in this accident.

[Norm]

Pat C,

We'll have to do that someday soon. Don't know that I can provide any useful information on using your camera, but coffee and a donut, or lunch would be fun. Let's do that. 248 330 8163. If I don't answer, leave a message.

I hate to admit it because I don't feel that old, but on Dec. 27th the number will be 68. OHMIGOSH!

My truck loves to travel.

[GrandsonOfGREngineers]

"The Pere Marquette: always safe, never on time."

Anyone know if the crew had a tall 6'4"- 6"-ish conductor -- I've never made it a point to get to know crews, but now since this I think I'll make the effort. If you start riding the line religiously and you talk it up with these folks this accident can way heavily on someone. Good to hear that everyone taken to the hospital has been released.

[amtrak1007]

GrandsonOfGREngineers: You'll have to be a bit more specific on who you mean. PM me and I'll do my best to describe who was all on that train.

Conrail John:
The "no breaking" and "20 mph" (or mpg as some have reported) numbers were from eye whitenesses, which would have little or no railroad related knowledge. The NTSB reported that the speed of the train was 9 - 10 through the Englewood interlocking Crossed over 1 to 2, then the train sped up to 40mph. 9 seconds before impact the train was put into emergency, wheels locked, the train slid 400 - 500'. At the impact estimated speed was 30 - 35 mph.

[Norm]

Well guys and gals; this is just a personal perspective from someone who has been around the block a few tines.

I have been a witness to aviation accidents; can't say the same about trains. Accounts vary; according to what one has seen. It is all from one's personal perspective, but reports do count. I can recall having been involved with NTSB investigators whose thoughts were to get to the bottom of things. Their questions were answered to the best of my ability, and I sincerely hope the engineer involved did that.

Yup, my goal in life is to assure that everyone gets home safely at night.

[J T]

Sumwalt declined to assess blame or say human error caused Friday's accident...

I'd say exceeding the speed limit certainly falls into the "human error" category.

"Part of our investigation is to figure out why that signal [indicating the 15 mph limit] was not obeyed," Sumwalt said.

Hmm, I have an idea...ask the engineer. It's a one question investigation from that standpoint.

Investigators will try to reconstruct the crash and may dismantle the locomotive to figure out what went wrong, Sumwalt said.

What's left the figure out? The engineer has spoken.

The analysis will likely take months.

Wait, didn't they already ASK the engineer what happend? How can that simple inquirey take months?

"We're not here to point fingers," Sumwalt said. "We're here to find out what happened so we can keep it from happening again. ... This is the very beginning of this investigation."

I understand an investigation has to be made as part of the procedure, with that investigation finding why it took the distance it did to stop, how the engine reacted in the collision, how the breaks worked, etc, etc. But to find out what happened? They already found out what happened....the engineer EXCEEDED THE SPEED LIMIT AND COULDN'T STOP THE TRAIN IN TIME.

When I read stuff like this I just want to...