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Hope they get all the ties in. Rumor has it when CP421 goes out of service for 3 months upcoming all trains for Kalamazoo will be routed via Toledo to Jackson Battle Creek and Kazoo. Only trains on Kalamazoo branch will be 303 and 501. Customers can expect delays with whats coming up. Backhauls will be the same route. A summer of discontent.

Super Chief wrote:Hope they get all the ties in. Rumor has it when CP421 goes out of service for 3 months upcoming all trains for Kalamazoo will be routed via Toledo to Jackson Battle Creek and Kazoo. Only trains on Kalamazoo branch will be 303 and 501. Customers can expect delays with whats coming up. Backhauls will be the same route. A summer of discontent.

Hmmm this is interesting.

Super Chief wrote:Hope they get all the ties in. Rumor has it when CP421 goes out of service for 3 months upcoming all trains for Kalamazoo will be routed via Toledo to Jackson Battle Creek and Kazoo. Only trains on Kalamazoo branch will be 303 and 501. Customers can expect delays with whats coming up. Backhauls will be the same route. A summer of discontent.

A three month outage seems like a long time. NS should be able to maintain some path through CP 421 (even if it is to CP 423 to have access to the yard). What would the Elkhart & Western do with three months of no access? Shut down?

Just a rumor, I agree with you it just doesn't add up. All trains would have to go an entirely different route thru Ft Wayne. You are correct the locals would be affected plus the Marion branch. Traffic levels seem to be down of late but changes frequently with price of oil and what about the CP trains? Tell them to get off at Porter and take the old way thru Grand Rapids? Rumors will keep coming on this for sure.

CP421 im guessing that is right by the passenger station in Elkhart. Where the line to the Grand Elk going towards Kalamazoo and Water Level Route meet or is that somewhere else?

penn central wrote:CP421 im guessing that is right by the passenger station in Elkhart. Where the line to the Grand Elk going towards Kalamazoo and Water Level Route meet or is that somewhere else?

All in the same place ... Main St in Elkhart.

Currently two mains to Chicago, the "coach track" and two freight leads to the yard west of CP 421, three mains to Goshen and the Kalamazoo Branch to the east of CP 421. The Amtrak station is on the north side of the interlocking. The Kalamazoo Branch leads to GDLK and the Elkhart and Western. (See the CP 421 thread in the Indiana Talk forum for more discussion. NS retains ownership of the Kalamazoo Branch to MP 1.4.)

I can see the branch connection be the first one pulled and the last one restored during a reconstruction and would agree with speculation that it would be out of service for a couple of days or a week. But I expect it will not be down for more than a day or two. Obviously getting the Chicago Line mains up and running is a priority - but it would not be impossible to maintain a connection to the branch.

For a project of such scale as CP 421, we can fully expect the project phasing to be as detailed and thought-out as the final product itself.

Thankfully, CP421 has some room to play with as-is. I would NOT expect any mainline shutdowns of more than a shift or two, and no significant number of them. Like with the Indiana Gateway project, I anticipate run-through traffic like some intermodals to utilize the NKP to get around it, either throughout the duration or just during shutdowns for heavy work.

I could foresee, for instance, some time where all through trains run through the yard using the N/S Freight while the two mains and the Kzoo Branch are reworked. However since I don't foresee much change in the mainline alignment, mostly turnout/diamond changes, any shutdowns should be limited.

I'm kinda thinking they'll rework the mains first, then do whatever it is that they're going to do to the N/S freight and Coach, before a final phase where everything is tied in together, and the old or temporary bits removed and the signals returned to full CTC. I wouldn't doubt that the interlocking could even become manual to a significant extent or even localized control to some extent during certain phases of the project. We shall see.

As far as the GDLK having access, there will obviously be times, such as my theorized first stage, where there will be interruptions. However replacing a diamond with a turnout and crossover does not take "weeks". It takes a shift or two and then some time under slow order to make sure all is well and good. So the GDLK and its little sister may be locked out of a couple of days at most.

Perhaps what you're hearing is NS may attempt the old 39/38E routine for Michigan Line traffic at minimum, or even feeding the Elk that way for a short time, perhaps a few days or even a week, if they think it is necessary. As justalurker pointed out and as I've alluded to, this would only be the case if the mainline shutdown is long enough for them to do so, but I just don't think it'll be all that long, given the scale and importance.

Just like the work on the Indiana Gateway and Goshen triple track, it is possible to phase things to only shut down a track or two at a time and utilize the existing redundancies to work around the issue. A full Chicago Line closure for more than a couple of hours has to be preplanned well in advance to keep a pileup for occurring, so no doubt it'll be very well thought out and probably have only minor impacts, compared to the scale of the project itself.

Fun times ahead!

Based on what I have seen (including construction in progress) I believe NS can keep all but the coach track in service through the entire build up to a "cut over" weekend. (North Freight out for a day for new switches, South Freight out for another day for new switches. But no long term outages for NS.)

The connection between Track 2 and the freight tracks that is used by GDLK trains to enter the yard will be out for a while, but trains can access the yard via CP 423.

Per the City of Kalamazoo twitter page, the Paterson street crossing between Pitcher and Edward will be closed to "facilitate railroad work". Last I knew this crossing was in pretty good shape roadwise. Maybe they're replacing the cantelviers and lights?

NSSD70ACe wrote:Per the City of Kalamazoo twitter page, the Paterson street crossing between Pitcher and Edward will be closed to "facilitate railroad work". Last I knew this crossing was in pretty good shape roadwise. Maybe they're replacing the cantilevers and lights?

They won't close a crossing for two weeks just to replace the lights...that can be done in a matter of hours, once they've installed the bases and such.

My guess is somebody (the government) got the money, or the railroad is already working in the area, to resurface the crossing, and perhaps make further improvements, hence the two-week schedule.

Saturnalia wrote:

NSSD70ACe wrote:Per the City of Kalamazoo twitter page, the Paterson street crossing between Pitcher and Edward will be closed to "facilitate railroad work". Last I knew this crossing was in pretty good shape roadwise. Maybe they're replacing the cantilevers and lights?

They won't close a crossing for two weeks just to replace the lights...that can be done in a matter of hours, once they've installed the bases and such.

My guess is somebody (the government) got the money, or the railroad is already working in the area, to resurface the crossing, and perhaps make further improvements, hence the two-week schedule.

If the crossing is in good shape yet is getting torn up, my thought was maybe some track work UNDER the crossing might necessitate the closing? Some of those crossings anymore have those big pieces of removable concrete.

Looking at google earth. It appears the Grand Elk may have picked up a new customer in Bristol and one north of White Pigeon.

Any news on the CSX & ELK trackage right agreement in Grand Rapids? Seems like their dragging their feet on that one.

Super Chief wrote:Any news on the CSX & ELK trackage right agreement in Grand Rapids? Seems like their dragging their feet on that one.

Kent County Circuit Court ruled in favor of CSX, the trackage rights expired per the 1984 agreement. The fact that CSX let them operate 2 more years was in-material to the rights issue. GDLK then refiled with the SBT. Nothing since then AFAIK.

I talked to one shipper and NS (Chicago)-GDLK-(Grand Rapids)-CSX-GR was a bit cheaper than CSX-(Chicago)-GR. I'm not sure that is correct since the waybill ends at NS in Chicago. Cars originating on NS waybill to GDLK-(Grand Rapids)-CSX-GR

Seems like someone's lawyer should have caught that problem before 2016. Even CSX missed it for a long time.

Paterson Street from Pitcher to Harrison will be closed until 8/11 for crossing work in Kalamazoo.

What is the contact phone number listed on Grand Elk RR grade crossings? The print is too small for me to read it when I'm driving by at 35mph. Called the Kalamazoo office phone number listed on their web site about a broken crossing arm in Grand Rapids but they had no idea how to get ahold of anyone in GR.

Grand Elk Railroad (GDLK) Emergency Notification telephone number is 866-386-9321.

The signs I have photographed (south of Kalamazoo) have 1-800-386-9321. Along with the crossing name and number.
Some signs have just the crossing number.

Curiosity: Where does GDLK fuel their engines? Is fuel trucked in to the yard in Kalamazoo or is there a fuel pad that they use somewhere?