Train Dispatching in 1987

Any historical questions can be posted here. Answers would certainly help as well :)
User avatar
C&O Dispatcher
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:02 pm

Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

It's rare to find any videos of dispatchers issuing train orders, but this is about the only one I have ever found. There's some information at the beginning to set it up. I believe at this time the CASO westward main was mostly out of service between St. Thomas and Windsor, so all trains had to use the eastward main. This was double track current of traffic territory. Here the dispatcher is "fixing up" a CSX westbound to run "wrong main" from St. Thomas to Windsor (after the arrival of an eastward train). To protect the move against opposing trains, he first issues the order to "Eastward trains originating" at Fargo and to "Eastward trains" at Windsor. He then addresses it to the CSX westbound at St. Thomas South (formerly known as BX Tower). Unfortunately, it cuts off before he finishes transmitting the order and you then hear one of the operators repeating it back as the dispatcher underlines the repeat in the train order book. It's not an ideal video, but it is rare and worth a look if you are interested. As a side note, the hot box tape you see running is the same type that we had in Saginaw. You had to examine the tape for any axle "blips" that appeared higher than all of the others as this could be a suspect hot journal. Then you had to manually count from the head or rear to give that info to the train crew. Obviously very low tech compared to what the industry uses today! Of course once upon a time, C&O trains ran over their own rails from St. Thomas to Windsor via Blenheim, not utilizing CASO tracks until Pelton (just east of Windsor) to access the river tunnel to Detroit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgRFjAdpefw

User avatar
KVERBERK
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:55 am
Location: Da U.P.

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by KVERBERK »

That was pretty cool. I liked catching a glimpse of C&O 904111 at the end there.
Sometime around 1988/89 while watching trains in Plymouth with my dad, A crew member tossed us some paper work from the passing locomotive. I'm pretty sure it included some orders from the CASO sub. I'll pull it out again and see if I can get some pictures of it. Thanks for posting
Up North TSBY/GLC Fan

User avatar
KVERBERK
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:55 am
Location: Da U.P.

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by KVERBERK »

There's more but just thought I'd share a few. I see Sarnia and Fargo as a couple locations listed..

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Up North TSBY/GLC Fan

User avatar
C&O Dispatcher
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

Thanks, KEVERBERK, for taking the time to post those train orders and forms! I really enjoy seeing items like that. Railroads operating in Canada fell under their uniform code of operating rules. The GTW used to use those same rules in the U.S. You'll note that they use the term "mileage" instead of milepost (MP), and that certain numbers also had to be written out in words -- kind of like writing a check. A few U.S. railroads used to require that, but on C&O/Chessie, we used the numerals only. I had never seen one of those CN manual block system forms before. In that Order No. 5, that part "This order to northward extra trains at Fargo" just alerts the now established Extra 5563 South that any opposing northward train is getting the order at the point of restriction. Any northward train receiving the order could not leave Fargo until after the southbound arrived since he has "right" over them. I got to copy a few GTW orders when I worked at Mershon tower. When you worked towers with two or more different railroads, you needed to have your wits about you to copy the orders according to each railroad's operating rules! Also, giving a train a "work" order didn't necessarily mean it was some kind of a work (MofW) train. It simply gave a train authority to operate in both directions within the specified limits until the time specified. You could modify the order to have them protect against (get out of the way of) other trains after a certain time if required. Any of these "other" trains would, of course, also be delivered a copy of the work order to know after what time they could enter the limits.

User avatar
KVERBERK
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:55 am
Location: Da U.P.

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by KVERBERK »

interesting stuff, thanks for explaining a bit. When I pulled these out years later I expected them to be more related to the Michigan area of CSX. I was a little surprised to find locations like Sarnia, Chantam, and Fargo. Wonder if they had been left in the locomotive by a previous crew.
Up North TSBY/GLC Fan

User avatar
C&O Dispatcher
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

KVERBERK wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:03 am
interesting stuff, thanks for explaining a bit. When I pulled these out years later I expected them to be more related to the Michigan area of CSX. I was a little surprised to find locations like Sarnia, Chantam, and Fargo. Wonder if they had been left in the locomotive by a previous crew.
You're probably right about the orders being left behind in the cab. It happened all the time. I befriended the conductor on the C&O Sportsman who worked Toledo to Fort Street depot and return. He used to load me up with orders he had found on the trains that came in from the south, including B&O stuff. On one of our fall trips on the Algoma Central, the conductor gave me all his train orders when we got back into the Soo. Here's a bi-lingual train order someone gave me one day when I was working over in Port Huron:
921566_149469368566116_1325904261_o.jpg
The oldest train order I have is from 1896. I found it in the rubble after they tore down the GTW depot in Drayton Plains back in 1965:
625541_133471686832551_1853639584_n.jpg

User avatar
KVERBERK
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:55 am
Location: Da U.P.

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by KVERBERK »

Wow That one from 1896 is really cool. Speaking of train orders, Here is a picture of a train order hoop that was given to my great uncle upon his retirement form the Soo Line(and eventually passed to my Dad and then me).
The orders that you see in the clip appears to be an inside joke.

They say something like this: Conductor Fraiser, Please pick up the d**m car you left at Nestoria for the last ten trips!

I don't dare take them out any more as the paper is completely falling apart.
Image

Also here is the rest of the paper from earlier. Notice the switch list with 61 cars all consecutively numbered. I did't get the entire list in the picture but the first column has 39 cars and second 24 cars with a csxt on one end and a CNA on the other consecutive numbers in the middle.
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Up North TSBY/GLC Fan

User avatar
C&O Dispatcher
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

Thanks for posting! I have an order hoop like that as well. Those were the early version where the engineer and conductor had to unclip the orders and then drop the hoop by the right-of-way for the operator to take a little hike to retrieve. Later replaced by the string with slip knot where they grabbed the whole string off the spring clip on the Y-shaped "fork" device. I tied my share of order strings--and can still do it, but why would you?? :) That switch list is pretty unique; how often would you see cars in perfect sequence like that?

User avatar
KVERBERK
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:55 am
Location: Da U.P.

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by KVERBERK »

Setting out orders. Hard to see but you can just make out the "fork" device you describe
This is also '88/89 in Plymouth. Not sure but I think that is a train order signal peeking up above the yard office?
Image
grabbing em

Image
Up North TSBY/GLC Fan

User avatar
C&O Dispatcher
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

Yes, that's the train order signal for straight through east-west trains at Plymouth. It's the "color light" type as opposed to the semaphore style found at most C&O offices. There wasn't a TO signal for north-south trains, so we had to put out orders for northbounds at Carleton and southbounds clear up at Wash Ave in Saginaw. (Wash Ave faxed orders to soutbounds that started at Flint). Plymouth also had hoops in the southwest and northwest wyes for trains to/from the Plymouth Sub. Trains out of Detroit got any slow orders for the Saginaw side at Rouge Telegraph. Most of the mechanical order stands on the C&O were the type in this photo by David Hedlund. This is a westbound coming around the wye at Mershon getting orders to run over the Elmdale Sub between Paines and Elmdale en route Grand Rapids. It's one of many places I strung up orders over my career on C&O. I've always loved this photo!
7157.1194818400.jpg
This photo of mine taken at Kearsley tower in Flint shows the "standard" train order signal on the C&O in Michigan:
1275689_192297754283277_1121241376_o (1).jpg

User avatar
KVERBERK
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:55 am
Location: Da U.P.

Re: Train Dispatching in 1987

Unread post by KVERBERK »

Wow thanks again for the interesting info! I really like that picture as well. Pretty neat that you strung up orders there. Lately I’ve taken quite an interest in C&O/CSX Michigan operations in the ‘80’s and 90’s. Particularly Plymouth and surrounding. So your first hand knowledge is great. In a couple of my Plymouth pictures you can barely make out the train order stand on the south west wye. It was the type you show here. “Iron man” I think I’ve seen it called. The strange thing was it looked to be standing next to the track furthest away from the office, which I thought was just a siding? Anyway, thanks again.

Kyle.
Up North TSBY/GLC Fan

Post Reply