Conrail Shared Assets Trackage

[chapmaja]

How many trains per day are running on the Conrail Shared Assets trackage in Detroit? The north end seems pretty straight forward as to what belowngs to what, but when you get to the Detroit Junction area is seems to get pretty confusing.

What yards does Conrail still have in Detroit. I know in the early Conrail days they had Sterling, North, Junction and River Rouge yards. I assume Mound Road was also a support yard as well, but it didn't originate or terminate any trains. Junction Yard was renamed as Livernois Yard correct.

I know the ending of Conrail is at MP 20 on the Detroit Line, but where on a map is this point?

Is Lincoln Yard just SE of NS Oakwood Yard, next to Rialto St?

How much service does the Lincoln Secondary receive?

[joeyuboats]

I believe that Mound YARD did originate/terminate trains. Use to spend quite a bit of time there watching trains that were made up from the Chrysler plants that were there, and they would be taken to North yard, and then the Mound yard crew would bring back a train to be switched when needed to Chrysler. The plants were the Warren Truck Assy., the Warren Stamping, possibly the Warren Mopar warehouse, and anything else in the area that required rail. Also there was/is a wire operation in Centerline, that used large coils of wire in bolt making, and there was Aetna Stamping, and the old Ulrich Lumber at 9 Mile. Most of this is gone now. Majority of cars handled were truck frames, inbound engines from Mexico, and hy--cube boxes of empty racks to be unloaded/reloaded at the stamping plant. There might have been a car or two from HYDRA-MATIC, but they did not ship much at all. Also was the old Mound Rd. Engine plant and the large scrapyard at 8 mile and Mound. These last 2 are long gone.
The crews that worked there were VERY railfan friendly, and were always eager to answer a question, or let us know of an train passing through on its way to/from Sterling Yard.
The yard office is long gone,and crews no longer call this small yard home. A long time ago, the yard office there was an old passenger car, very long gone.

[chapmaja]

I believe that Mound YARD did originate/terminate trains. Use to spend quite a bit of time there watching trains that were made up from the Chrysler plants that were there, and they would be taken to North yard, and then the Mound yard crew would bring back a train to be switched when needed to Chrysler. The plants were the Warren Truck Assy., the Warren Stamping, possibly the Warren Mopar warehouse, and anything else in the area that required rail. Also there was/is a wire operation in Centerline, that used large coils of wire in bolt making, and there was Aetna Stamping, and the old Ulrich Lumber at 9 Mile. Most of this is gone now. Majority of cars handled were truck frames, inbound engines from Mexico, and hy--cube boxes of empty racks to be unloaded/reloaded at the stamping plant. There might have been a car or two from HYDRA-MATIC, but they did not ship much at all. Also was the old Mound Rd. Engine plant and the large scrapyard at 8 mile and Mound. These last 2 are long gone.
The crews that worked there were VERY railfan friendly, and were always eager to answer a question, or let us know of an train passing through on its way to/from Sterling Yard.
The yard office is long gone,and crews no longer call this small yard home. A long time ago, the yard office there was an old passenger car, very long gone.

I think the trains from Mound to North yards would have been considered as transfer jobs rather than as trains originating or terminating at Mound Yard. I can't find anything on any schedules I have found indicating trains terminating or originating from Mound Yard (not to say it didn't happen at one time).

[M.D.Bentley]

Question, Detroit junction? Just yards in Detroit or all the yards that Conrail has.

[Manistique]

The Conrail tracks go over M-59 in Utica and went a bit further north but those may be pulled now. There is an industry that receives covered hoppers right south of the M-59 service drive and that is as far as they go now north of Sterling Yard.

Yes, Lincoln Yard is SW of NS's Oakwood Yard. It was the Pennsylvania Yard in Detroit.

There is a pretty large Yard at the Chrysler North Jefferson Jeep Plant in Detroit on the former Detroit Terminal line that was built to service the enlarged plant serviced by Conrail. All the old DTRR from there to North Tower/North Yard is now welded rail I think. It gets a lot of traffic.

[kd_1014]

What is the point of CR shared assets? Is it just a zone where they couldn’t evenly divide up trackage between NS and CSX? Or more of a customer idea?

[Chip]

What is the point of CR shared assets? Is it just a zone where they couldn’t evenly divide up trackage between NS and CSX? Or more of a customer idea?

The way I understood it was there was 3 areas CSX and NS couldn’t agree how to divide these areas so nobody would have an unfair competitive advantage or something like that.

[chapmaja]

What is the point of CR shared assets? Is it just a zone where they couldn’t evenly divide up trackage between NS and CSX? Or more of a customer idea?

The way I understood it was there was 3 areas CSX and NS couldn’t agree how to divide these areas so nobody would have an unfair competitive advantage or something like that.

Pretty much nailed it. Three areas where they did not want one company to have an unfair competitive advantage over the other due to a significant volume of traffic within the area in question. By running it as a joint company (CSA is jointly owned by NS and CSX) they both have access to the area, but still have a competitive nature about the area. I suspect this was also something shippers in those areas pushed for to keep competition honest.

[chapmaja]

One thing I just thought about with the Shared Assets trackage. I know CSX and NS both have access and run trains to connect with Conrail Shared Assets in Detroit. Does CSA also interchange traffic with CN in Detroit, or does this have to go via NS or CSX? I know back in the day there were a lot more railroads and thus a lot of transfer jobs with traffic to various other railroads, but with the way things are today, does CN still interchange with NS/CSX/CSA in the Detroit area?

[Manistique]

One thing I just thought about with the Shared Assets trackage. I know CSX and NS both have access and run trains to connect with Conrail Shared Assets in Detroit. Does CSA also interchange traffic with CN in Detroit, or does this have to go via NS or CSX? I know back in the day there were a lot more railroads and thus a lot of transfer jobs with traffic to various other railroads, but with the way things are today, does CN still interchange with NS/CSX/CSA in the Detroit area?

This is a good question. I know there is a small interchange between CN and CSA at North Yard/East Yard in Detroit but that is all I can think of. My guess is that the interchange is in Toledo for both of the railroads now.

[Chip]

I see NS and CSX trains on the former NYC going through downriver, with NS taking the southbound traffic and CSX with northbound traffic. NS ownership of the line begins in Gibraltar between Old Fort and Gibraltar Rd. Not 100% sure where CSA ownership begins on the northbound track.

Meanwhile on the Lincoln it’s usually CSX handling the northbound intermodal trains and NS handling local trains.

[GP30M4216]

In scouring the web for something else recently, I was pleasantly surprised to find Jeff Knorek’s website on the Conrail Detroit SAA is still alive and well. In the early days of the interwebs, which were also the early days of the post-Conrail period, this was a go-to resource for information about the Detroit Shared Assets area. Worth a look if you’ve never checked it out! Some of the information is out of date, but there is quite a bit that is still relevant, too.

http://knorek.com/RR/SAA/SAAIndex.htm

[ConrailDetr​oit]

, does CN still interchange with NS/CSX/CSA in the Detroit area?

CN and NS Interchange at Oakwood.

[chapmaja]

Another question about the Shared Assets line. The Highland Park Industrial Track, per the above mention website, extened to CSX P Company Jct and cross the CN Holly Subdivision at grade just west of I75. This is per the 2000 map on the website.

This line no longer extends beyond Gallagher St and has seen the majority of the line removed, including across the Holly Sub. When was this line removed.

Also in following the line I find it interesting that one section, per Google Maps is still in place albeit disconnected from anything else. Between Cloverdale and Wyoming, there still appear to be tracks in place, although disconnected at both ends. This appears to either have been a small yard or at least a main and passing siding. Why was this section not removed, but across Wyoming was. The line then resumes operational condition just west of Wyoming.

Where was P Company Jct located?

[DaveO]

Where was P Company Jct located?

its by the dearborn schools bus yard on maple

[GP30M4216]

Another question about the Shared Assets line. The Highland Park Industrial Track, per the above mention website, extened to CSX P Company Jct and cross the CN Holly Subdivision at grade just west of I75. This is per the 2000 map on the website.

This line no longer extends beyond Gallagher St and has seen the majority of the line removed, including across the Holly Sub. When was this line removed.

Also in following the line I find it interesting that one section, per Google Maps is still in place albeit disconnected from anything else. Between Cloverdale and Wyoming, there still appear to be tracks in place, although disconnected at both ends. This appears to either have been a small yard or at least a main and passing siding. Why was this section not removed, but across Wyoming was. The line then resumes operational condition just west of Wyoming.

Where was P Company Jct located?

How’s this for an archival dig? In what must have been one of my first trip reports posted to Railroadfan.com | The BIG Train! back in late 2004, I noted that Ford Junction where the Conrail crossed the Holly Sub had been recently removed: https://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... mtrak#p243

P company Junction is in east Dearborn, between Schaefer and Warren, at the end of Maple Street as was said: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Hw8skPLkzDpFE8886?g_st=ic

This is the former Union Belt of Detroit west side line. Union Belt was part owned by the PRR, hence the “P Company” name.

[RailsandTrucks]

The line crossing the Holly sub just west of 75 is the former Detroit Terminal mainline. This is essentially the eastern end of the referenced Highland Park Industrial track on the Knorek website.

The Detroit Terminal and Union Belt were, in a way, the competing terminal railroads in Detroit.

Union Belt, and the associated Fort Street Union Depot, was part of the PRR/PM (C&O)/Wabash.

Detroit Terminal was under GTW/NYC ownership.

A big difference between the two, is that the Union Belt was more or less a "paper" railroad as far as I'm aware- in that the respective owning railroads provided motive power and crews via what I think was some sort of alternating agreement - The exception being the NW5's used by the Fort Street Union Depot (part of the Union Belt). The Detroit Terminal meanwhile, had it's own motive power (Baldwin and EMD switchers in the Diesel years) and crews, along with a large roundhouse/yard.

The Detroit Terminal was used by the NYC and GTW as a way to access Ford's large plant in Highland Park, while the Union Belt provided the PRR, PM, and Wabash with access. Highland Park Assembly predated Ford's Rouge complex, hence the desire for all the major local railroads to want in on that traffic.

The Detroit Terminal's co-ownership existed Right up until the end too, when in the early 80's, Conrail bought out GTW's interest and the DTRR became part of Conrail itself. The east end of the DTRR is what Conrail Shared Assets today still uses to serve Chrysler (Stellantis) Jefferson and Mack assembly plants - along with I think another industry or two. DTRR's main yard was Davison, located just north of the intersection of Mound and McNichols, and now mostly occupied by a prison. These are the tracks referenced as stopping around Gallagher street. Detroit Terminal basically looped around from the riverfront near where the two Chrysler plants are now, crossed the Mt Clemens Sub of the GTW, then crossed the Bay City Branch of the NYC, then headed west, crossed the holly sub of the GTW, then crossed the Union Belt and I believe the PM at one point (or multiple) before tying back into the NYC near where Miller Road and 94 meet today.

As far as when the line was removed- that I'm not 100% sure, but likely sometime after the early 80's. The decline of industry in Detroit hit the DTRR hard. The few industries that were left on the west end could be easier accessed by Conrail via Junction/Livernois yards.

I believe for the most part, the ex Union Belt trackage leading to Highland park became part of Chessie, but I'm much less sure on how that all happened or when that all got trimmed back. That area is a bit of a tangle in terms of what was Union Belt, what was PM, and there might even be a tiny bit of DTRR in there still. Doesn't help that even in the last 20 years or so at least one or two customers have left. The DTRR and the Union Belt also were really close to each other for a short stretch- so that blurs the lines even more.

A few interesting notes on motive power.

One of the Detroit Terminal's Baldwin switchers was used as a switcher for a Grain Elevator on the former Water Level route near Waterloo Indiana until sometime past 2010 or so- not sure where it is now. An NW2 (in rebuilt status) survives as well, or at least did until recently, having been used by the IHB.

One of the Fort Street Union Depot NW5's also survives, at a museum in south Florida.

Anywho, here's a map of the Union Belt, plus an older thread that's somewhat related that I managed to dig up.

https://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rai ... 6-1940.pdf

https://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... =3&t=37022

[jggilmore7]

The line crossing the Holly sub just west of 75 is the former Detroit Terminal mainline. This is essentially the eastern end of the referenced Highland Park Industrial track on the Knorek website.

The Detroit Terminal and Union Belt were, in a way, the competing terminal railroads in Detroit.

Anywho, here's a map of the Union Belt, plus an older thread that's somewhat related that I managed to dig up.

https://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rai ... 6-1940.pdf

https://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... =3&t=37022

Thanks for the post railsandtrucks, appreciate the nice DTRR write-up and reference to the previous threads. I'd forgotten about the CR pdf for Detroit, anyone with an interest in Detroit railroading should examine it, and the last page with the overview of trackage around Delray and vicinity is priceless...

JG

[GP30M4216]

What CR job works down the Lincoln 2ndary to service the Ford Parts complex at Sibley and Guardian Glass near Carleton? Guardian is a trailing point switch for northbound moves, so does the local go all the way into Carleton, run around their train in one of the sidings south of the diamond on the CSX, then return north to switch the plant? Does anyone know how long Guardian has been there? There used to be a passing siding on the Lincoln line just where it branched off from the C&O but that is long gone. It would have made a good run around for switching Guardian.

[Eric Berger]

What CR job works down the Lincoln 2ndary to service the Ford Parts complex at Sibley and Guardian Glass near Carleton? Guardian is a trailing point switch for northbound moves, so does the local go all the way into Carleton, run around their train in one of the sidings south of the diamond on the CSX, then return north to switch the plant? Does anyone know how long Guardian has been there? There used to be a passing siding on the Lincoln line just where it branched off from the C&O but that is long gone. It would have made a good run around for switching Guardian.

From my observations, there is usually plenty of room in the Guardian yard for them to drop their incoming cars, grab the outgoing cars, then head out. Sometimes, if they had a lot of cars to switch, they'd leave the incoming cars north of Will Carleton, go in to grab the outgoing cars, put them between Will Carleton and Romine, move the incoming cars into the yard, then come back out and connect to the outgoing cars, to return north. They've been doing it either way since at least the 1990s, when the connection at Carleton was not there.

The passing siding went north to just past Grafton Road; they took that out in late 1997, while they were rehabbing the line for through trains to run along there again. I am not sure how far south the siding extended, though. I remember there was also an approach signal for Carleton just before the Grafton crossing, which the light had been removed at some point before 1996, when I started going to Carleton on a regular basis, but the tower remained until 1997. They took the signal tower out at that time, and they moved the approach signal to its current location between Newberg and 275.

Finally, I went past Brownstown today on Sibley Road. I noted that the Jordan spreader that had sit at the end of the yard lead for the past quarter century, easily, has finally been removed from there.