CSX Signal Question

[David Lang]

What is the difference between Rule C1291 and C1292? To me, they both appear to be all red, which is a stop indication.

Can someone explain this?

Thanks.

[pudgy]

What is the difference between Rule C1291 and C1292? To me, they both appear to be all red, which is a stop indication.

Can someone explain this?

Thanks.

The number boards on the signals indicate they are intermediate signals, between control points. The most restrictive signal is a "restricted proceed" so a train can continue until they encounter either a better signal or an obvious defect or obstruction that they cannot proceed past. Signals without the number boards are absolute signals and you need dispatcher authority to pass them if they are red. They protect switches, diamonds, draw bridges, etc.

[David Lang]

Thanks Pudgy, that helps a lot.

[CSXT8390]

My signal chart is ripped right out of our rule book and the sign entering the signal rules specifically calls out the rule numbers. You can see the same / similar sign going the opposite direction near the Plymouth Diamond on the line that runs to GR.

What is the difference then between 1288(a) and C1288(b)? They're both R/R/Y.
What is the difference then between 1286(a) and C1288(a)? They're both R/Y/R.
What is the difference then between 1286(b) and C1290(b)? They're both R/Y.

That is why I described the different denotations in the signal aspects shown in the charts, because the average non-CSX-employee fan could easily get confused.

I get what you’re saying. They LOOK the same but mean different things depending on how they display. I’m just used to looking at them (regardless of the rule number) based on location and knowing what the signal can or should display.

Anything with a rule starting with C is Chessie signal system. Anything without the C before is the standard CSX “seaboard” signals.

But I’m guessing you know that already.

[LansingRailFan]

I think it would be a lot easier if people just hung out trackside with lamps. Then trains could stop every so often and these folks could just tell the engineers what’s going on and where they should go and how fast etc…

[chapmaja]

Something else I thought about. While driving on US-23 near Brighton we pass under the CSX mainline. To the west of the expressway is the signal for westbound trains. This appears to be a single light signal.

I assume this is a distant signal before the signal for East End Brighton. I often see this signal in the yellow configuration early in the day, and then red later in the day. For example today, while driving NB abotut 5 pm, it was yellow. Approximately 8:30 pm, it was red. Normally between these times the two trains between Detroit and Grand Rapids have passed through and met at some point near Brighton, correct? Is this signal normally yellow except for when there is an oncoming movement from west to east or does this have something to do with the alignment of the tracks at the east end of Brighton siding?

[SD80MAC]

The signal at US 23 is the last intermediate before the east end of Brighton. Unlike some of the intermediates on the Plymouth Sub, it is constantly lit. Green if the train is lined through Brighton on the main, some form of approach if lined in the siding (or the train is not yet lined through Brighton), red if there is a train in the block or if a train is lined from the west.

[chapmaja]

The signal at US 23 is the last intermediate before the east end of Brighton. Unlike some of the intermediates on the Plymouth Sub, it is constantly lit. Green if the train is lined through Brighton on the main, some form of approach if lined in the siding (or the train is not yet lined through Brighton), red if there is a train in the block or if a train is lined from the west.

Thank you.

[Jovet]

What you have to understand about these signal charts, is that the square head aspects are the "Seaboard" or CSX Standard aspects. The oval head aspects are the C&O aspects. While not shown here, the Conrail aspects are depicted by round head aspects.

That is not correct. The different sets of signal rules are divided into distinct sections in the CSX rulebook. As shown, they are both Rule C1288 (which is Chessie-derived). It doesn't matter how the graphics actually look, and I would bet that the rulebook author simply copied/pasted the graphics from another section versus trying to make a "proper" one.

The only reason I have combined the standard/Seaboard signaling and the C&O/Chessie signals onto one page in my signal chart is because the indications are the same and I thought that would be simpler. A railfan looking at signals along a track still has to know which of the three sets of signal rules to use at that location.

[BnOEngr]

That is not correct. The different sets of signal rules are divided into distinct sections in the CSX rulebook. As shown, they are both Rule C1288 (which is Chessie-derived). It doesn't matter how the graphics actually look, and I would bet that the rulebook author simply copied/pasted the graphics from another section versus trying to make a "proper" one.

As one who dealt with the different aspects and the Chessie/CSX rulebooks for 42 years, I stand by my comment.

[Doktor No]

BnOEngr..I'll stand with you on this one. No such Chessie/C&O signal indication Red Red Yellow exists up here on Michigan C&O Division trackage east of Lansing. All old searchlite system signals and I ran over there for YEARS. Pulling out various C&O, Chessie and CSX rulebooks says the same.
Again, people with limited knowledge, no railroad work experience and never had a C&O/Chessie/CSX rule book or even took a rules class are just guessing and most are really bad guesses to boot.
Until you take a decent color pic of that red over red over yellow and post it, I call it bogus. Prove us wrong.

[Jovet]

As one who dealt with the different aspects and the Chessie/CSX rulebooks for 42 years, I stand by my comment.

That is excellent. When did you retire?

Logic tells me that different rules won't be shown in the rulebook together. That is, we are talking about rule C1288 only, as that is what the except from the rulebook shows. It's not showing or talking about C1288 and also 1288 from the previous section. Because then there's no point to the separate section!

Is it perhaps possible that CSX added some non-Chessie aspects to formerly-Chessie territory after you left? That is what the apparent copy-and-paste graphics in the definitely-Chessie section of the CSX rulebook tells me has happened. I have no idea if this is really the case, but perhaps you can tell us. The Chessie/C&O schema is pretty "out there" as far as contemporary practice goes, and trying to get more-standard aspects on that territory makes sense to me as far as managerial thinking. Rule C1288 is certainly not unique in this regard. Even on the same page, we see C1290 with lunar white aspects the C&O/Chessie would never ever have had in a million years, and then there's C1284 on the previous page. But all of these are shown in the Chessie section of the rulebook—mine's from 2017.

I do hope you're not trying to state that there really aren't three separate sections in the rulebook for the three historically-separate signal territories (Standard/Seaboard, C&O, Conrail). The second section covering Rules C1280 through C1298 are very clearly labeled "Chessie" in reference to that territory.

[pudgy]

There are 3 separate sections in the rule book for said signal systems. They do not inter-mingle these signals, either. A territory is defined from point to point having a specific signal rule in place. Most of the system has been updated to Standard/Seaboard. The Plymouth Sub has the largest single section of Chessie signals in effect system wide, I believe. Instructors told trainees in Atlanta they wouldn't need to know Chessie signals... That was incorrect...

[SD80MAC]

There are 3 separate sections in the rule book for said signal systems. They do not inter-mingle these signals, either. A territory is defined from point to point having a specific signal rule in place. Most of the system has been updated to Standard/Seaboard. The Plymouth Sub has the largest single section of Chessie signals in effect system wide, I believe. Instructors told trainees in Atlanta they wouldn't need to know Chessie signals... That was incorrect...

Heck, they told me that 10 years ago!

[amessmann]

Most of the system has been updated to Standard/Seaboard. The Plymouth Sub has the largest single section of Chessie signals in effect system wide, I believe.

Think they will set the new signals up under Seaboard rules? I imagine they would wait until the whole subdivision is resignaled so that the subdivision is defined under one set of rules like you said.

[SD80MAC]

Most of the system has been updated to Standard/Seaboard. The Plymouth Sub has the largest single section of Chessie signals in effect system wide, I believe.

Think they will set the new signals up under Seaboard rules? I imagine they would wait until the whole subdivision is resignaled so that the subdivision is defined under one set of rules like you said.

All new CSX signal installations are Seaboard rules. The Plymouth Sub between Lake Odessa and Seymour has been Seaboard since 2007.

[pudgy]

BnOEngr..I'll stand with you on this one. No such Chessie/C&O signal indication Red Red Yellow exists up here on Michigan C&O Division trackage east of Lansing. All old searchlite system signals and I ran over there for YEARS. Pulling out various C&O, Chessie and CSX rulebooks says the same.
Again, people with limited knowledge, no railroad work experience and never had a C&O/Chessie/CSX rule book or even took a rules class are just guessing and most are really bad guesses to boot.
Until you take a decent color pic of that red over red over yellow and post it, I call it bogus. Prove us wrong.

I hate to be the bearer of this news, but there is in fact a signal of R/R/Y in the CSX Chessie Signals rules section. I agree there is no location on the Plymouth Sub that uses this combination, but it must exist somewhere, or it wouldn't be in the book.

C1288 Slow Approach

[David Collins]

BnOEngr..I'll stand with you on this one. No such Chessie/C&O signal indication Red Red Yellow exists up here on Michigan C&O Division trackage east of Lansing. All old searchlite system signals and I ran over there for YEARS. Pulling out various C&O, Chessie and CSX rulebooks says the same.
Again, people with limited knowledge, no railroad work experience and never had a C&O/Chessie/CSX rule book or even took a rules class are just guessing and most are really bad guesses to boot.
Until you take a decent color pic of that red over red over yellow and post it, I call it bogus. Prove us wrong.

I hate to be the bearer of this news, but there is in fact a signal of R/R/Y in the CSX Chessie Signals rules section. I agree there is no location on the Plymouth Sub that uses this combination, but it must exist somewhere, or it wouldn't be in the book.

C1288 Slow Approach

Not sure if this is relevant but NS does use this signal aspect too on the chicagoline.

[LansingRailFan]

BnOEngr..I'll stand with you on this one. No such Chessie/C&O signal indication Red Red Yellow exists up here on Michigan C&O Division trackage east of Lansing. All old searchlite system signals and I ran over there for YEARS. Pulling out various C&O, Chessie and CSX rulebooks says the same.
Again, people with limited knowledge, no railroad work experience and never had a C&O/Chessie/CSX rule book or even took a rules class are just guessing and most are really bad guesses to boot.
Until you take a decent color pic of that red over red over yellow and post it, I call it bogus. Prove us wrong.

I hate to be the bearer of this news, but there is in fact a signal of R/R/Y in the CSX Chessie Signals rules section. I agree there is no location on the Plymouth Sub that uses this combination, but it must exist somewhere, or it wouldn't be in the book.

C1288 Slow Approach

Slow Approach was my nickname in high school.

[Saturnalia]

Not sure if this is relevant but NS does use this signal aspect too on the chicagoline.

Not relevant at all.