Questions about Grand Elk

Anything pertaining to railfanning in Michigan.
MikeB89
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:34 am
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by MikeB89 »

So I live pretty close to Grand Elk line in Grand Rapids. Most days I can hear Grand Elk coming and leaving the area.

One thing I never understood is why there is no track signals. This being leased from NS I would've thought there would be some old NS style track signals. Sure there is signals near Wyoming yard as well as signals in Kalamazoo. So why is there no signals?

That being said last weekend I took a trip to Elkhart to watch some trains and Grand Elk travels pretty close to 131 the whole way there. To my surprise I saw some of the old Tri-Light NS signals. Thing is they were dark and yet the control cabinet outside light was lit. Does NS use these signals for anything? Heck do they even function?

I'm curious because someday I would like to give Grand Elk a chase from Elkhart to Kalamazoo and then hopefully to Grand Rapids.

So would anyone actually have any information to this. I guess I also want to know if Grand Elk uses any type of train control such as ATC or even PTC. I doubt they would use PTC considering they're a shortline.

PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by PatAzo »

Kalamazoo to Grand Rapids is the ex-PRR/GR&I. It was never signaled.

Kalamazoo to Three Rivers is ex-NYC/LS&MS. Aside from the diamond at Schoolcraft it was never signaled until you get to CP Park on the north side of Three Rivers. The signals at Park used to be on 24/7 but after an upgrade a few years ago appear to be approach lite.

South of Three Rivers to Elkhart was signaled by the NYC with CTC in the 50's when the Niles yard closed and Detroit-Chicago traffic was diverted off the Michigan Central onto the Airline between Jackson and Three Rivers then down to Elkhart. GDLK applied to deactivate the signals a few years back but were turned down.

No PTC or ATC. Just old fashion railfanning.

User avatar
~Z~
Sofa King Admin
Posts: 12893
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by ~Z~ »

Between 44th St in Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo, there's only one short 1/2 mile long siding that two trains could meet, plus a basically little runaround at Endeavor in Wayland. Train-wise, there's only the one train that goes north out of Kalamazoo to GR, switches out, and heads back to Kzoo, so the need to signal for a train to meet another train heading in the opposite direction is basically nill.
Along US131 on the north side of Three Rivers is the siding called Park. That's where you saw the signals enroute to Elkhart. NS used to run B19 south from Kzoo towards Three Rivers, plus there were Jackson to Elkhart and GR to Elkhart trains, so more often, they'd meet at Park. There's more sidings near the MI/IN state line and Bristol too, so signals are more needed there.
With the lack of trains to come across as they head north or south, signals just aren't needed to keep traffic managed.
Webmaster
Railroad photos on Railroadfan.com

User avatar
SD80MAC
Ingersoll's Mr. Michigan
Posts: 10412
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: Grand Rapids

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by SD80MAC »

Pat and Z have it covered, the line was never signaled, never was busy enough to warrant it. Everything was run by timetable and train orders.
"Remember, 4 mph is a couple, 5's a collision!"
http://flickriver.com/photos/conrail680 ... teresting/
Image

Jim_c
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by Jim_c »

IIRC when it was PRR, there was a signal just north of Miller Rd, north of Plainwell. The concrete that it sat on is visible from Miller Rd. It may have had to do with the PRR/NYC diamond that used to be in Plainwell, but I'm not sure.
Trails to Rails. Put the track back.

User avatar
justalurker66
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 am

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by justalurker66 »

Yes. The diamonds are signaled. I believe all of them also have distant signals to warn trains of the diamond they are approaching. The distants are effectively "stop ahead" signals.

User avatar
Standard Railfan
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1798
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Marquette, MI

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by Standard Railfan »

Jim_c wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:42 pm
IIRC when it was PRR, there was a signal just north of Miller Rd, north of Plainwell. The concrete that it sat on is visible from Miller Rd. It may have had to do with the PRR/NYC diamond that used to be in Plainwell, but I'm not sure.
The PRR /NYC crossing at Plainwell was interlocked. Tower was called JN on the PRR.
I believe the interlocking machine was 64 levers with 35 in use.
There must have been a lot of signals. :lol:

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1236
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by chapmaja »

~Z~ wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:16 am
Between 44th St in Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo, there's only one short 1/2 mile long siding that two trains could meet, plus a basically little runaround at Endeavor in Wayland. Train-wise, there's only the one train that goes north out of Kalamazoo to GR, switches out, and heads back to Kzoo, so the need to signal for a train to meet another train heading in the opposite direction is basically nill.
Along US131 on the north side of Three Rivers is the siding called Park. That's where you saw the signals enroute to Elkhart. NS used to run B19 south from Kzoo towards Three Rivers, plus there were Jackson to Elkhart and GR to Elkhart trains, so more often, they'd meet at Park. There's more sidings near the MI/IN state line and Bristol too, so signals are more needed there.
With the lack of trains to come across as they head north or south, signals just aren't needed to keep traffic managed.
Is there a Grand Rapids local that switches the traffic in an around Grand Rapids, or is that all handled by the single train to GR?

MikeB89
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:34 am
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by MikeB89 »

chapmaja wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:21 pm
~Z~ wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:16 am
Between 44th St in Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo, there's only one short 1/2 mile long siding that two trains could meet, plus a basically little runaround at Endeavor in Wayland. Train-wise, there's only the one train that goes north out of Kalamazoo to GR, switches out, and heads back to Kzoo, so the need to signal for a train to meet another train heading in the opposite direction is basically nill.
Along US131 on the north side of Three Rivers is the siding called Park. That's where you saw the signals enroute to Elkhart. NS used to run B19 south from Kzoo towards Three Rivers, plus there were Jackson to Elkhart and GR to Elkhart trains, so more often, they'd meet at Park. There's more sidings near the MI/IN state line and Bristol too, so signals are more needed there.
With the lack of trains to come across as they head north or south, signals just aren't needed to keep traffic managed.
Is there a Grand Rapids local that switches the traffic in an around Grand Rapids, or is that all handled by the single train to GR?
There is indeed a Grand Elk local in GR. I've caught it a few times going past 32nd and 36th St. It usually heads to the little yard behind Consumers Energy office building. Does a little work there before heading up to the main yard. It also does stuff around Wyoming Yard and up near Grand Rapids Eastern.

Now regarding my original questions thank you so much for all the answers. Just needed to understand all of that and now I do.

Someone mentioned distant signals before the CN diamond. I do in fact believe I saw some but wasn't exactly sure. I plan on doing some more Grand Elk railfanning just to understand this company better.

PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by PatAzo »

MikeB89 wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:56 am
Someone mentioned distant signals before the CN diamond.
Southbound it is at U Ave. Northbound it is at Y Z Ave.

User avatar
~Z~
Sofa King Admin
Posts: 12893
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by ~Z~ »

MikeB89 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:37 am
I'm curious because someday I would like to give Grand Elk a chase from Elkhart to Kalamazoo and then hopefully to Grand Rapids.
Oh, just letting you know this isn't likely going to be able to happen. Crews go on duty in Kzoo, and head north to GR and south to Elkhart in the morning usually. Unless the Elkhart train gets a really early start and GR train has a late start, you wouldn't be able to see both easily.
Start in Kzoo. If the train backs out of the yard through town, it'll head north to GR. If locos are on the headend facing west, it's heading south instead.
Back in NS days, they had a 36E and 37E, (also 46E and 47E) that would run to and from Grand Rapids straight through to Elkhart without stopping to switch at Kzoo.
Webmaster
Railroad photos on Railroadfan.com

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1236
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by chapmaja »

~Z~ wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:19 am
MikeB89 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:37 am
I'm curious because someday I would like to give Grand Elk a chase from Elkhart to Kalamazoo and then hopefully to Grand Rapids.
Oh, just letting you know this isn't likely going to be able to happen. Crews go on duty in Kzoo, and head north to GR and south to Elkhart in the morning usually. Unless the Elkhart train gets a really early start and GR train has a late start, you wouldn't be able to see both easily.
Start in Kzoo. If the train backs out of the yard through town, it'll head north to GR. If locos are on the headend facing west, it's heading south instead.
Back in NS days, they had a 36E and 37E, (also 46E and 47E) that would run to and from Grand Rapids straight through to Elkhart without stopping to switch at Kzoo.
This was back when the Stamping plant was still in operation and Conrail had a substantial amount of traffic coming from the plant.

I remember the 36E/37E combination, but when was 46E/47E run? Was this an extra version of 36E/37E or a weekend version or something along those lines. I don't recall two trains being needed per day each direction.

User avatar
~Z~
Sofa King Admin
Posts: 12893
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: Questions about Grand Elk

Unread post by ~Z~ »

chapmaja wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:26 am
I remember the 36E/37E combination, but when was 46E/47E run? Was this an extra version of 36E/37E or a weekend version or something along those lines. I don't recall two trains being needed per day each direction.
46E and 47E were just their designation for the GR to Elkhart and back trains, and were later changed to 36E and 37E. NS did the same with 48J and 49J changing to 38J and 39J. The J trains were the Jackson to Elkhart and return.
Searching through old photos, date of change from 40's to 30's was approx 2004.
Webmaster
Railroad photos on Railroadfan.com

Post Reply