Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Anything pertaining to railfanning in Michigan.
User avatar
GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Location: Somewhere on the Mt. Clemens Sub

Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GTW Dude »

Hi guys, for the longest time now I have been searching around the internet for photos of a GTW Through Baggage car that was stationed at the siding track located at the Platform of Pontiac Station in Pontiac MI. My Grandfather, who grew up catching the bus with his dad up to Pontiac recalls seeing a green with gold lettered GTW Through Baggage boxcar that would always sit at the platform and was unlike any other GTW Baggage Boxcar he had ever seen. Later on, he would photograph the Boxcar at an older age but the photos are currently scattered, and we have no clue where they ended up at but they are bound to show up eventually. For a while, I doubted the existence of the boxcar until I managed to find different photos of unusual GTW Through baggage boxcars with doors on each coupler end in the green and gold paint scheme that was described to me. This is what I have found so far and only one very grainy FRA crash photo from the September 7th 1971 head on collision at Pontiac that has allowed me to confirm its existence.

Example 1: Photo from the FRA Report

Example 2: A slide that appeared on eBay shows a double door 50-footer boxcar sitting with the doors open at Lansing MI. According to the seller the photo was taken in august of 1957. Upon closer inspection the car states it was built in August of 1937. The side also appears to possible have a small outline on the end for where a standard door would be placed (Not to be confused with a diaphragm and a door, it was just an end door) What’s unusual is that a 50’ footer double door existed on the GTW before the 1960’s which is really when they took off on the railroad market and replaced the aging 40’ footers. another thing is I NEVER and I mean NEVER recall the GTW owning express boxcars larger than 40 feet. We can confirm thought that the boxcar was in fact built or rebuilt before 1961 because that was the year the GTW employed the black and white paint scheme on all of its equipment.

Example 3: In One of Byron Babbish's “Chronicles of a Detroit Railfan” I believe in the “Pontiac Operations” book showcases when a MOW crane and a through baggage car from Port Huron was moved to Pontiac to assess a sideswipe or accident in the yard of some sort. I will not however post the image here because I know Mr. Babbish is a user here on Railroadfan and am not sure of his willingness of me to post his photos from his book showcasing the crane and boxcar so I will leave that up to him. The rest of these photos I have no clue who to credit or have watermarks.

Example 4:this is what I am NOT looking for. I have already confirmed this boxcar at Pontiac was a GTW Bunk car. Not a Through Baggage car. I do not know however if it is the one that is currently at SRI that was donated by Bluewater but it very well is.

If anyone could help me in my endeavor it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!

Edit: made some grammatical fixes and such to make the post easier to read.
Attachments
FRA Report
FRA Report
eBay Listing
eBay Listing
Bunk Car
Bunk Car
Last edited by GTW Dude on Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DaveO
Read more, think more, post less
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:57 pm
Location: Between here and there

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by DaveO »

Don't discount that bunk car as not having been an express car.
Pictures out there show GTW put some former express cars into MOW service.
Picture not clear enough to say one way or the other.

User avatar
GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Location: Somewhere on the Mt. Clemens Sub

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GTW Dude »

Here’s a zoomed in shot of the photo. If you look at the trucks it doesn’t look like it has the usual U shape express truck frame across the side as per the light peeking through the bottom of the car. To me, it looks like they are standard Friction bearing trucks but I could be wrong.
Attachments
3174AF6E-2245-4857-A73F-B8B48509DDD5.jpeg

User avatar
DaveO
Read more, think more, post less
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:57 pm
Location: Between here and there

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by DaveO »

I agree that it's on a freight truck.
If there was a need, then it wouldn't be unheard of to swap out the passenger trucks for freight trucks.

GP30M4216
Saver of all History
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:35 pm
Location: Feel the Zeel, MI
Contact:

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GP30M4216 »

I don't know that this answers your question, but it might be helpful. On page. 67 of Jerry A. Pinkepank's Grand Trunk Western in Color, Vol. 1, 1941-1961, it shows two photos (including the same slide image at Lansing from ebay you found) of GTW express cars and says
"BME box GTW 11484 behind the tender was one of 11 such cars built by Pullman-Standard in 1941 in a freight box car series but on passenger trucks, and renumbered as baggage cars in 1942-43 (except this car which was renumbered in 1951). When renumbered, they were equipped with steam and signal lines and stenciled "Through Baggage," but were generally used for storage mail. Five more boxcars (3 built in 1937 and 2 more in 1941) were given passenger trucks in 1952 along with the steam and signal in a continuation of this successful idea for a cheap, quick new BME capacity. GTW 11495 (shown in Lansing in August 1954) was one of the 1937 cars."
Car 11484 appears to be single door. 11495 has double doors on each side. I believe all of these cars so converted were 50' examples.

At least two of these cars have been preserved to my knowledge. One is at the Michigan Transit Museum (11494). The other, I think, is at the Saginaw Valley Railroad Museum (11493). Both are in their GTW MofW livery. I don't believe either have the end doors you describe. You can find photos of these two, and a few others, at this link, scroll all the way to the bottom: http://passcarphotos.rypn.org/Indices/G1.htm. There appear to be other photos of GTW cars in company service here, maybe one of these is the car you're looking for? https://www.pinterest.ca/intlabel/on-co ... t-gtw-80s/

Manistique
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 4238
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Manistique »

GP30M4216 wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:54 pm
I don't know that this answers your question, but it might be helpful. On page. 67 of Jerry A. Pinkepank's Grand Trunk Western in Color, Vol. 1, 1941-1961, it shows two photos (including the same slide image at Lansing from ebay you found) of GTW express cars and says
"BME box GTW 11484 behind the tender was one of 11 such cars built by Pullman-Standard in 1941 in a freight box car series but on passenger trucks, and renumbered as baggage cars in 1942-43 (except this car which was renumbered in 1951). When renumbered, they were equipped with steam and signal lines and stenciled "Through Baggage," but were generally used for storage mail. Five more boxcars (3 built in 1937 and 2 more in 1941) were given passenger trucks in 1952 along with the steam and signal in a continuation of this successful idea for a cheap, quick new BME capacity. GTW 11495 (shown in Lansing in August 1954) was one of the 1937 cars."
Car 11484 appears to be single door. 11495 has double doors on each side. I believe all of these cars so converted were 50' examples.

At least two of these cars have been preserved to my knowledge. One is at the Michigan Transit Museum (11494). The other, I think, is at the Saginaw Valley Railroad Museum (11493). Both are in their GTW MofW livery. I don't believe either have the end doors you describe. You can find photos of these two, and a few others, at this link, scroll all the way to the bottom: http://passcarphotos.rypn.org/Indices/G1.htm. There appear to be other photos of GTW cars in company service here, maybe one of these is the car you're looking for? https://www.pinterest.ca/intlabel/on-co ... t-gtw-80s/
Years ago I heard rumor that the late Paul Maximuke, a local railfan and author, had purchased one, maybe two, of these express boxcars and used them to store his vast amount of paperwork and stuff he collected from abandoned railroad buildings like Detroit Terminal's administration building on Mound and Davison. My guess is the one at Michigan Transit Museum is one of his boxcars as I have heard they have Paul's DTRR paperwork and probably got it out of there. I had heard that one of the boxcars was out on some farm out that way but maybe it is the same one. I also have a memory that there is another one of these GTW express boxcars at Raisin Center along with some stored Ann Arbor Railroad equipment including one of the RS-1's. Not sure if I am correct or, if I am, if it was one of Paul's.

User avatar
NS3322
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:08 pm
Location: CP-LEVITT

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by NS3322 »

Manistique wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:44 pm
I had heard that one of the boxcars was out on some farm out that way but maybe it is the same one. I also have a memory that there is another one of these GTW express boxcars at Raisin Center along with some stored Ann Arbor Railroad equipment including one of the RS-1's. Not sure if I am correct or, if I am, if it was one of Paul's.
That is an Ann Arbor boxcar #1357 .
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=5507363

GP30M4216
Saver of all History
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:35 pm
Location: Feel the Zeel, MI
Contact:

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GP30M4216 »

Here’s a shot of GTW 11494 in the equipment lineup at the Michigan Transit Museum. It’s one of the most significant cars in their collection.
41B86A04-4F8A-416A-8838-A5BC109E3A19.jpeg

User avatar
GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Location: Somewhere on the Mt. Clemens Sub

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GTW Dude »

I was watching Herron Rails “Glory Machines on the Grand Trunk Western” (which BTW has hands down the best pre-1960 footage of the GTW I’ve ever seen) and nearly spat out my dinner while watching. The through baggage car shows up on the tail end of a commuter at Bloomfield Hills with the door plainly in sight. Now if only I could find a number…
Attachments
23FDD556-9119-44F4-9012-0BAE7D24F21D.jpeg

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Chip »

I'm pretty sure there's one of these (or something similar to it) sitting in Flat Rock Yard. You can see it from Vreeland Rd. if the tracks parallel to the road are empty. It's sat there for years and never moved. Never been able to get a good enough look at it to say for sure what it is since it's to far away from the road.

User avatar
GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Location: Somewhere on the Mt. Clemens Sub

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GTW Dude »

Chip wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:42 pm
I'm pretty sure there's one of these (or something similar to it) sitting in Flat Rock Yard. You can see it from Vreeland Rd. if the tracks parallel to the road are empty. It's sat there for years and never moved. Never been able to get a good enough look at it to say for sure what it is since it's to far away from the road.
is this the car you are referring to? if so, it looks to me like an old DT&I automobile boxcar. I think you can see a faded DT&I Compass logo on the google earth image and it appears to have a rounded end roof. I'll have to take a trip to Flat Rock soon to check it out with my big lens.

first image is what i assume the boxcar looks like.
Attachments
bxcr.JPG
DT&I Box.JPG
flt rck.JPG

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Chip »

Yep, that's the one in the bottom pic. They must use it for storage since it sits so close to the car repair shop.

When you do come out this way, stop at Station 24 or Atwater Street Tacos for lunch.

User avatar
GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Location: Somewhere on the Mt. Clemens Sub

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GTW Dude »

Tried my best to get some photos yesterday, but as it turned out there were a string of autoracks blocking my shot and I needed an even bigger lens! Safe to say I will be going back to Flat Rock to get better photos of the boxcar but these will have to do for now.

P.S they also brought out one of the shop switchers! those things look like fun to drive.
Attachments
DSC_0513.JPG
DSC_0493.JPG
DSC_0499.JPG

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Chip »

I drove by there today and they moved it in the first time in as long as I can remember! It's much closer to the road now and there's nothing in the way, at least as of 11:00

It is an old DT&I compass logo

User avatar
GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Location: Somewhere on the Mt. Clemens Sub

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GTW Dude »

Chip wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 1:37 pm
I drove by there today and they moved it in the first time in as long as I can remember! It's much closer to the road now and there's nothing in the way, at least as of 11:00

It is an old DT&I compass logo
That is great news! of course it happens the day AFTER I go lol. Do you know if it is on friction or roller bearings?

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Chip »

GTW Dude wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 3:23 pm
Chip wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 1:37 pm
I drove by there today and they moved it in the first time in as long as I can remember! It's much closer to the road now and there's nothing in the way, at least as of 11:00

It is an old DT&I compass logo
That is great news! of course it happens the day AFTER I go lol. Do you know if it is on friction or roller bearings?
I didn't get that good of a look, I was driving.

FTR That shop switcher thing is out all the time. Not sure what it is but it's used every day. That's where they repair rolling stock.

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Chip »

Those are likely the last pictures of that boxcar ever taken. I'm pretty sure it's in process of being scrapped in place. Drove by yesterday and the body was gone with only a flat platform left in its place.

User avatar
GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Location: Somewhere on the Mt. Clemens Sub

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by GTW Dude »

How sad that more history has been lost. I sure hope it’s just tucked away in the yard somewhere and it’s just some regular flatcar in its place. Did you happen to get a glimpse of the journal bearings? I’d assume that boxcar still has its plain bearings given it just sits in the yard. I’m really hoping it was just a railcar that was found unable to be fixed by the shops.

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Chip »

It's back in its old position too far away from the road to get a good look at. I don't think it's tucked away somewhere, the yard is pretty empty right now. I have a feeling some of the tracks are fixing to get pulled, it's been operating at nowhere near capacity for several years now.

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: Pontiac’s long forgotten GTW Through Baggage car

Unread post by Chip »

Update: it still exists! They moved it over a track so I didn't see it last time but it's there currently coupled with another car.

Post Reply