My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

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My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by dalek ling »

Here is my report if GLC ever made the white pine trail into a line from Cadillac to Grand Rapids.

So if they did this they will have to share tracks with Marquette rail for a while and then CSX to go to the yard in Wyoming.

They will have to remove 44 miles of concrete (Cadillac to Big Rapids) the rest is just trails gravel

They will have to build 92 Miles of tracks (1 mile of tracks =1 mil) so at first it will be around 92 million $

If they want to do this they need customers there is a lot of Sand mills in the area in Paris and Big Rapids and maybe more and they have the cars for that but there is a another customer they could have, the Yoplait factory in Reed city they could buy up to 15 refrigerated cars like what they use for the Tropicana juice train. One refrigerated car is 140,000$ so it would be if they buy 15 it would be 2,100,000$

So in total it would be 97,100,000$ I know there is more but this what I think how much it would be.
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by Jim_c »

Interesting idea. Too bad the rails got taken out in the first place. Some state money would be needed. One other possibility passenger service to TC from GR. That probably has a better chance of success than AA to TC. An additional advantage is that at some point the metro GR area may want to look very seriously at commuter rail. The corridor through Rockford would support that.

And I know, there will be folks who will have a million reasons why the idea is ridiculous. And then there are the NIMBYs.
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by dalek ling »

Jim_c wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:35 pm
Interesting idea. Too bad the rails got taken out in the first place. Some state money would be needed. One other possibility passenger service to TC from GR. That probably has a better chance of success than AA to TC. An additional advantage is that at some point the metro GR area may want to look very seriously at commuter rail. The corridor through Rockford would support that.

And I know, there will be folks who will have a million reasons why the idea is ridiculous. And then there are the NIMBYs.
Ya i think a passenger train from TC to GR sounds great. maybe Amtrak could even expand the Pere Marquette up there. But i still think passenger trains should go atleast to Mt Pleasent.

I heard the reason the state took of the rail was cause of the AA railroad being babys.
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by AARR »

There was very little business on this segment and AA could interchange cars with Chessie at Clare so Reed City was not needed

Yoplait never shipped by rail even in the good old days when there were far more rail shippers so there is no chance they would start now
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by NS3322 »

AARR wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:45 pm
Yoplait never shipped by rail even in the good old days when there were far more rail shippers so there is no chance they would start now
Plus they likely work on just-in-time delivery and they ship just about everything from Reed City to their cold storage warehouse in Kalamazoo...

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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by ~Z~ »

Don't you touch that rail trail.. that's an excellent biking route out of Grand Rapids.
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by PatAzo »

Figure the bridges and culverts will need replacement or repairs. A quick look at Googlemaps showed about 35 water crossing big enough to show up. You have road work at the grade crossings and they will all need gates and lights. You would need an environmental impact study and face legal challenges so budget for that. Assume GR, Rockford and Cedar Springs will have enough muscle to force you to build a parallel trail that far.

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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by Standard Railfan »

dalek ling wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:09 pm
If they want to do this they need customers there is a lot of Sand mills in the area in Paris and Big Rapids and maybe more and they have the cars for that…
No need to spend the money to get to sand mines. There is an existing underutilized sand mine already located on GLC at Yuma.
The recent construction of truck to rail sand loading facilities near Grand Rapids and Muskegon also show that building rail lines to sand mines is not cost effective.

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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Why on earth does everybody seem to think that passenger trains to Traverse City might be a good idea? Lol
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by Standard Railfan »

dalek ling wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:43 pm

I heard the reason the state took of the rail was cause of the AA railroad being babys.
In the early 1990s I spoke at length with the MDOT manager responsible for the GR to Cadillac segment. The State was committed to selling the line as the only significant traffic North of Cadillac was sand from Yuma bound for Ford in Cleveland. The was little to no on-line traffic on the GRR to CAD segment.

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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by AARR »

And AFAIK the GR sand transload is not being used and the Berry Jct. (Muskegon) one is generating very little traffic.
Standard Railfan wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:09 am
dalek ling wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:09 pm
If they want to do this they need customers there is a lot of Sand mills in the area in Paris and Big Rapids and maybe more and they have the cars for that…
No need to spend the money to get to sand mines. There is an existing underutilized sand mine already located on GLC at Yuma.
The recent construction of truck to rail sand loading facilities near Grand Rapids and Muskegon also show that building rail lines to sand mines is not cost effective.
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by dalek ling »

Saturnalia wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:13 am
Why on earth does everybody seem to think that passenger trains to Traverse City might be a good idea? Lol
Cause some people like the idea. Even if it sounds stupid to some people. People think it would be cool having “if this line existed” have the cherry capital of the world connected to Beer city or even the Windy City of Chicago and beyond
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by Saturnalia »

dalek ling wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:26 am
Saturnalia wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:13 am
Why on earth does everybody seem to think that passenger trains to Traverse City might be a good idea? Lol
Cause some people like the idea. Even if it sounds stupid to some people. People think it would be cool having “if this line existed” have the cherry capital of the world connected to Beer city or even the Windy City of Chicago and beyond
I guess if you’re divorced from reality, sure!

Seems to be a lot of that going around these days…
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by dalek ling »

Saturnalia wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:32 am
dalek ling wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:26 am
Saturnalia wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:13 am
Why on earth does everybody seem to think that passenger trains to Traverse City might be a good idea? Lol
Cause some people like the idea. Even if it sounds stupid to some people. People think it would be cool having “if this line existed” have the cherry capital of the world connected to Beer city or even the Windy City of Chicago and beyond
I guess if you’re divorced from reality, sure!

Seems to be a lot of that going around these days…
I get the problem. “Not enough buissiness” “passenger rail is so out dated” “no one wants to go up there” “its a short line railroad” I am not stupid i just think passenger rail in northern Michigan sounds cool that’s all it’s just challenging with the stuff we have
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by dalek ling »

lighthouse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:14 pm
I think a commuter rail line would be great but instead of trying to establish one on tracks that don’t exist why not commuter rail service between Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids on the Gand Elk line first … then Grand Rapids would have a rail link to Detroit and Chicago via Amtrak out of Kalamazoo.

Just a random thought from a really bored guy who is waiting for football to come on lol
I like that. In my opinion I think the Coast to Coast should start first then all the other commuter rail ideas the state has can build around it.
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by PatAzo »

If is cool is the criteria skip the GR&I, build a Space X autonomous railroad up the center median of US131.

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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by GP-35 »

Would'nt it be more logical to put the rails back to Evert for Michigan Patash & Salt Co. That will happen sooner rather than latter. In case you did'nt know thats why the trees are being cleared next to the tracks west of Clare, this is going to be the trans-load for MP&S Co. There wont be any rails laid this year, but there going to fill and grade the yard this year. There's going to be two other trans-load areas but I'll save that for a latter date. MP&S Co. secured $ 950,000.00 for the plant and other related projects (rail). When its time to put the rails back to west of Evert the state is looking at building a connecter track somewhere around Farwell southwest over to the old C&O main. Tonnage is estimated to be 650,000 tons of Potash a year and around 1,000,000 tons of table salt a year. United States imports 92% of the nation use of Potash, and this Potash find in one of the purest Potash finds in the world. Production will begin in late 2024. I know everyone has heard about this before, but all the permits are in and ok'd and funding is secured, so it will be interesting. I can tell you for a fact that it will go to GLC, because they have all the right inter-changes with the class one railroads.

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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by AARR »

Why not use the transload in Cadillac Yard?

Although it's ironic because Mr. TSB wanted to build the transload in Clare to begin with and it was the potash company that insisted on Cadillac. Then the quality wasn't what they thought and the operation shutdown quickly.
GP-35 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:00 pm
Would'nt it be more logical to put the rails back to Evert for Michigan Patash & Salt Co. That will happen sooner rather than latter. In case you did'nt know thats why the trees are being cleared next to the tracks west of Clare, this is going to be the trans-load for MP&S Co.
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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by GP-35 »

Mr.AARR, that was Cargill not MP&S Co. and they were loading salt right next to a car dealership and they piss'ed and moaned that the salt in the air was going to rust there new cars on the lot, so Cargill said the hell with it. They never did load potash in Cadillac, it was all salt. Go for a ride down to Clare and you can see the tree clearing being done.

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Re: My “somewhat” report on how much it would be to turn the white pine trail into a rail line.

Unread post by Steve B »

GP-35 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:00 pm
When its time to put the rails back to west of Evert the state is looking at building a connecter track somewhere around Farwell southwest over to the old C&O main.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm looking forward to a link to a state document, or quote from a state official about this.

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