Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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J T
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Ypsi wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:27 pm

This is an opinion not backed by fact.
It's based on common sense...something that is lacking from people who think an Ann Arbor to TC passenger train would work.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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AARR wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:54 am
dalek ling wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:44 am
It is actually weird there is no Passenger trains from like Chicago to Sault Ste Marine MI and ON.
There are not enough passengers along that route who would use train transportation to justify the cost of the equipment/people/etc.
Ya I understand that but what if it stopped in Madison, Green Bay, Milluake, and Marquette? won't that be enough?
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

Unread post by Saturnalia »

There are only 300,000 people in the entire Upper Peninsula. There is definitely no reason for passenger service up there.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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J T wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:28 am
Ypsi wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:27 pm

This is an opinion not backed by fact.
It's based on common sense...something that is lacking from people who think an Ann Arbor to TC passenger train would work.
When I told my grandpa this project he said it won't work but would work if they did excursions. One reasons why he said this is cause it would be a while for towns like Mt pleasent to get used to schedule trains and stuff like that.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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dalek ling wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:10 am
AARR wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:54 am
dalek ling wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:44 am
It is actually weird there is no Passenger trains from like Chicago to Sault Ste Marine MI and ON.
There are not enough passengers along that route who would use train transportation to justify the cost of the equipment/people/etc.
Ya I understand that but what if it stopped in Madison, Green Bay, Milluake, and Marquette? won't that be enough?
Yikes...that would be a long slow trip...

I do not think you have been to Sault Ste. Marie, MI or Sault Ste. Marie, ON...

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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NS3322 wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:56 am
dalek ling wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:10 am
AARR wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:54 am

There are not enough passengers along that route who would use train transportation to justify the cost of the equipment/people/etc.
Ya I understand that but what if it stopped in Madison, Green Bay, Milluake, and Marquette? won't that be enough?
Yikes...that would be a long slow trip...

I do not think you have been to Sault Ste. Marie, MI or Sault Ste. Marie, ON...
I have been to Sault ste Marine MI. there aren't many people there. They would us CN tracks right or is there shortlines along the way?
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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They're not going to use any of those tracks because they're not suitable for passenger service.
You might want to familiarize yourself with the official MDOT railroad map.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot ... 0289_7.pdf
Remember WATCO takes over some of those UP lines.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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I can't belive MDOT has not updated that map in 9 years. I know that not a whole lot has changed but it still seems like quite a while.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Michael wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:08 pm
I can't belive MDOT has not updated that map in 9 years. I know that not a whole lot has changed but it still seems like quite a while.
I guess if I was Lake State Railway I would ask MDOT about that.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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DaveO wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:03 pm
They're not going to use any of those tracks because they're not suitable for passenger service.
You might want to familiarize yourself with the official MDOT railroad map.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot ... 0289_7.pdf
Remember WATCO takes over some of those UP lines.
The only UP lines Watco are taking over are the Newberry Subdivision and the OOS White Pine Subdivision which are both branch lines.
Everyone seems to have a hard time understanding this. CN is not exiting the UP...well yet...

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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NS3322 wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:22 pm
DaveO wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:03 pm
They're not going to use any of those tracks because they're not suitable for passenger service.
You might want to familiarize yourself with the official MDOT railroad map.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot ... 0289_7.pdf
Remember WATCO takes over some of those UP lines.
The only UP lines Watco are taking over are the Newberry Subdivision and the OOS White Pine Subdivision which are both branch lines.
Everyone seems to have a hard time understanding this. CN is not exiting the UP...well yet...
Thus why I used the word "some".

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

Unread post by J T »

DaveO wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:03 pm
They're not going to use any of those tracks because they're not suitable for passenger service.
You might want to familiarize yourself with the official MDOT railroad map.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot ... 0289_7.pdf
Remember WATCO takes over some of those UP lines.
Thanks for the link. I'd seen that map before but forgot to bookmark it.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Here is a slightly newer version of the MDOT Rail Map from March 2017
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot ... 3909_7.pdf

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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PatAzo wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:39 am
1) What are the benefits to society?
It is not hard to make a list of how trains are better than cars and buses. It is harder to build a service that provides a real alternative and get people to actually use it.
PatAzo wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:39 am
2) How would you pay for it?
I wouldn't. Hopefully someone who feels that the line should be built will come up with a better answer than taxes or long term debt that will be paid back by taxes.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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More frequent start times and better on-time arrivals will go a long ways to building up business
justalurker66 wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:22 pm
PatAzo wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:39 am
1) What are the benefits to society?
It is not hard to make a list of how trains are better than cars and buses. It is harder to build a service that provides a real alternative and get people to actually use it.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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justalurker66 wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:22 pm
PatAzo wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:39 am
1) What are the benefits to society?
It is not hard to make a list of how trains are better than cars and buses. It is harder to build a service that provides a real alternative and get people to actually use it.
It isn't that it is hard to build a service that provides an alternative. The hurdle is there is not (or perception of) a present day necessity. When the convenience of a personal auto is available the majority choose the car. That is not an American trait either. I did some work in Germany where the train stopped directly across from our hotel and within a block of where we worked. I asked my German colleagues why we didn't use the train. "It only comes once an hour" and they said cars were more convenient. We flew into Frankfort where rail service has a station at the terminal and went to a site within ear shot of local station. Again cars were more convenient.

The individual opinion on A2TC or MDOT's Coast to Coast comes down to your belief of what the future holds. Do things stay as they are or does something drive us away from highways to an alternative?
justalurker66 wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:22 pm
PatAzo wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:39 am
2) How would you pay for it?
I wouldn't. Hopefully someone who feels that the line should be built will come up with a better answer than taxes or long term debt that will be paid back by taxes.
Lacking a plan to pay for it long term, at best the service would be at the mercy of political whim. Big promises during the election year and an easy target when it's time to cut spending.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

Unread post by Chip »

Big promises during the election year and an easy target when it's time to cut spending.
Amtrak has been plagued by this since it started in the 70s.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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AARR wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:24 pm
More frequent start times and better on-time arrivals will go a long ways to building up business
I am a fan of railroads and passenger rail - I am not a fan of "build it and they will come". The purpose and need has to be proven before construction money is spent.

A low service frequency and late arrivals will kill a service, but there is no point in building a service that will fail.
PatAzo wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:22 pm
The individual opinion on A2TC or MDOT's Coast to Coast comes down to your belief of what the future holds. Do things stay as they are or does something drive us away from highways to an alternative?
When people are driven away from highways we can build the alternative. I remember the gas shortages in the 1970s and the prediction that as prices increased more people would be forced off of the roads and on to public transit (including trains). But we got past the shortages and gas prices have risen from no station selling gas for more than a dollar a gallon to over $3 per gallon being normal. People still like their cars. Fuel economy helped some - 40+ MPG cars replacing 10-20 MPG cars keeps the cost per mile down. But people still choose the 20 MPG or less vehicles because they want the bigger vehicles.
PatAzo wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:22 pm
Lacking a plan to pay for it long term, at best the service would be at the mercy of political whim. Big promises during the election year and an easy target when it's time to cut spending.
It is hard to cut what has not been added. Perhaps some politician would get credit for not advancing a wasteful plan.

It probably isn't political suicide to suggest moving away from cars in Michigan. The auto industry is not what it once was. But most of outstate Michigan residents are the car owning I'll drive myself types not relying on delivery, ride share and pubic transportation as much as the big city residents.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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justalurker66 wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:07 pm

...But most of outstate Michigan residents are the car owning I'll drive myself types not relying on delivery, ride share and pubic transportation as much as the big city residents.
And it's easy to not rely on public transportation where it's nonexistent. I'm not saying there should be a bus stop on every country corner, of course.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

Unread post by PatAzo »

When the interstate system was launched there was a public demand for improved roads. Traffic growth in both personal vehicles and motor freight necessitated better roads.

Missing from A2TC is a public demand for an Ann Arbor to Traverse City rail service.

Sure some small business are in favor. If it is as good plan as they claim are the cities who would benefit from it willig to guarantee a bond issue to pay for it?

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