Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Jetlink
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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AARR wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:02 pm
Marijuana stores?
'

At least that many.
interested in trains

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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AARR wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:02 pm
Marijuana stores?
J T wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:27 pm
Plannerdad wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:45 pm
Last count, I think there are 6 open in Lowell and 2 under construction. None close to the GRE, yet.
6 what open?
Yes

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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AARR wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:02 pm
Marijuana stores?
J T wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:27 pm
Plannerdad wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:45 pm
Last count, I think there are 6 open in Lowell and 2 under construction. None close to the GRE, yet.
6 what open?
Brothels?
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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"This railway here in Traverse City will someday be used as a way to get from here in northern Michigan to Ann Arbor"

Sure, if you're planning on being a hobo.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Part of what bothers me with the plan is that it is pretty much setup to cater to upper income folks who have nothing better to do but take a cruise train from their McMansions in the Detroit Exurbs up to the fancy wining and dining of Traverse City.

Public Transit is supposed to fill a NEEDED hole in the transportation network that private companies cannot provide, and should be applicable to a broad swath of the income ladder. We should not be subsidizing a train for a bunch of rich snobs just so they don't have to drive their Cadillacs or Mercedes to and from the north end of the Mitten like the plebeians do.

I'm not a class warfare guy by any means, but its just another facet of this project that is useless, or at the very least, welfare for rich people.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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People supporting this don’t realize that it costs a lot of money to run a train: crew, fuel, locomotive maintenance, leasing the passenger cars, and technically up keep of the tracks itself should be added. But the SOM will likely cover that cost for the state owned lines.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Plannerdad wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:10 pm
People supporting this don’t realize that it costs a lot of money to run a train: crew, fuel, locomotive maintenance, leasing the passenger cars, and technically up keep of the tracks itself should be added. But the SOM will likely cover that cost for the state owned lines.
I understand the money. It’s not all free to make a commuter line. Not even Groundwork will own the line some other company like brightline someone who is experience with something like this. Or they will make a separate company to own it. It is still a long road ahead but if it goes well I can see a commuter train by the time I ider graduate High school or graduate collage.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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dalek ling wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:17 pm
Plannerdad wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:10 pm
People supporting this don’t realize that it costs a lot of money to run a train: crew, fuel, locomotive maintenance, leasing the passenger cars, and technically up keep of the tracks itself should be added. But the SOM will likely cover that cost for the state owned lines.
I understand the money. It’s not all free to make a commuter line. Not even Groundwork will own the line some other company like brightline someone who is experience with something like this. Or they will make a separate company to own it. It is still a long road ahead but if it goes well I can see a commuter train by the time I ider graduate High school or graduate collage.
This isn’t a commuter proposal really…
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Saturnalia wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:07 pm
Part of what bothers me with the plan is that it is pretty much setup to cater to upper income folks who have nothing better to do but take a cruise train from their McMansions in the Detroit Exurbs up to the fancy wining and dining of Traverse City.

Public Transit is supposed to fill a NEEDED hole in the transportation network that private companies cannot provide, and should be applicable to a broad swath of the income ladder. We should not be subsidizing a train for a bunch of rich snobs just so they don't have to drive their Cadillacs or Mercedes to and from the north end of the Mitten like the plebeians do.

I'm not a class warfare guy by any means, but its just another facet of this project that is useless, or at the very least, welfare for rich people.
And Indian Trails already provides a bus from Grand Rapids and other connecting cities to Traverse City for those without vehicles.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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I mean I believe this could happen. If it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work. If it works it works. And if they make MDOT loose a lot of money they can just sue the hell out of groundwork’s
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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A daily train to from Ann Arbor to Traverse City is a great idea. Need to run two trains every day. One S.B. out of TC to AA and one N.B. from AA to TC. That way people in the middle of the route can get to TC or AA. The bad part is in AA you would have to get off train in eather North AA or at the old AA station and cab over to the NYC Amtrak station.
But before this is built (1 million dollars per mile) we should have an Amtrak Train on the C&O from Detroit to Holland, tieing up in Michigan City. Again two trains daily. By tieing up in Michigan City that gives you access to the South Shore and to a destination, the Casino. Just have to build a lay over track in Michigan City.
Train leave Detroit and Michigan City in the Morning. Have to get to Lansing by 0700 for the E.B. train and by 1800 for the W.B. train. That way State workers can go to-from Detroit. without driving. Pool cars avaible in Detroit and Lansing.
Like is signaled, little freight traffic. might have to build at least one siding and signal work around Lake "O" but this would be a viable route. Better than the AA -TC train.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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KenB wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:07 pm
A daily train to from Ann Arbor to Traverse City is a great idea.
You had me at the beginning, not gonna like :lol:
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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KenB wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:07 pm
A daily train to from Ann Arbor to Traverse City is a great idea. Need to run two trains every day. One S.B. out of TC to AA and one N.B. from AA to TC. That way people in the middle of the route can get to TC or AA. The bad part is in AA you would have to get off train in eather North AA or at the old AA station and cab over to the NYC Amtrak station.
But before this is built (1 million dollars per mile) we should have an Amtrak Train on the C&O from Detroit to Holland, tieing up in Michigan City. Again two trains daily. By tieing up in Michigan City that gives you access to the South Shore and to a destination, the Casino. Just have to build a lay over track in Michigan City.
Train leave Detroit and Michigan City in the Morning. Have to get to Lansing by 0700 for the E.B. train and by 1800 for the W.B. train. That way State workers can go to-from Detroit. without driving. Pool cars avaible in Detroit and Lansing.
Like is signaled, little freight traffic. might have to build at least one siding and signal work around Lake "O" but this would be a viable route. Better than the AA -TC train.

Ken Borg
Ya I believe other commuter routes that MDOT wants like the Coast to Coast should happen first before A2TC in my opinion
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Numerous grade crossings, many tiny curves, see Byron, Very slow curve at Lakeland
Howell is 10? mph with a tight curve coming out of town NB, plus a "nice" S curve north of M59. Permission to cross CSX diamond and CN at Durand, yard speed limit from Pitt to Lennon. 79mph ???? Nice dream... plus any renovations required at TC.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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For the proponents of A2TC and Coast to Coast:

1) What are the benefits to society? Not just you think it's a good idea or it's cool. Will workers and business be more productive? Will reduce transportation costs,? i.e. MDOT be able to eliminate highway lanes or automobiles of tomorrow will be so expensive the average Joe won't be able to afford one.

2) How do you propose to actually pay for it? Not grants and deficit spending. For example interstate highways were financed with bond issues that were repaid with fuel taxes or tolls. The Mackinac was paid for with a bond issue and tolls. Pipe lines were paid for the firms who transport fuels over them.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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PatAzo wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:30 pm
...
2) How do you propose to actually pay for it? Not grants and deficit spending. For example interstate highways were financed with bond issues that were repaid with fuel taxes or tolls. The Mackinac was paid for with a bond issue and tolls. Pipe lines were paid for the firms who transport fuels over them.
Interstate highways weren't paid for by bonds (the Mackinac Bridge was built before the Interstates were signed into law). They were paid for by the Highway Trust Fund, which is (mostly) paid for by fuel taxes. Construction was 90% paid by the feds, 10% states.

Much of the Pentagon budget is paid for with deficit spending. I'm not saying that A2TC is a good idea, but let's not fall into the trap that tends to think of only feel-good "soft" programs as deficit spenders. Since 2001 wars have been responsible for nearly a third of our debt.
Last edited by Steve B on Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Steve B wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:41 pm
PatAzo wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:30 pm
For the proponents of A2TC and Coast to Coast:

1) What are the benefits to society? Not just you think it's a good idea or it's cool. Will workers and business be more productive? Will reduce transportation costs,? i.e. MDOT be able to eliminate highway lanes or automobiles of tomorrow will be so expensive the average Joe won't be able to afford one.

2) How do you propose to actually pay for it? Not grants and deficit spending. For example interstate highways were financed with bond issues that were repaid with fuel taxes or tolls. The Mackinac was paid for with a bond issue and tolls. Pipe lines were paid for the firms who transport fuels over them.
Interstate highways weren't paid for by bonds (the Mackinac Bridge was built before the Interstates were signed into law). They were paid for by the Highway Trust Fund, which is (mostly) paid for by fuel taxes.
Ok so what if the taxes went to the HTF and then to projects...same difference :roll:

Honestly though public transportation never pays its own way so it is kind of a bad start to assume profitability. One must instead look at the cost/benefit ratio.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Saturnalia wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:00 pm
Steve B wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:41 pm
PatAzo wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:30 pm
For the proponents of A2TC and Coast to Coast:

1) What are the benefits to society? Not just you think it's a good idea or it's cool. Will workers and business be more productive? Will reduce transportation costs,? i.e. MDOT be able to eliminate highway lanes or automobiles of tomorrow will be so expensive the average Joe won't be able to afford one.

2) How do you propose to actually pay for it? Not grants and deficit spending. For example interstate highways were financed with bond issues that were repaid with fuel taxes or tolls. The Mackinac was paid for with a bond issue and tolls. Pipe lines were paid for the firms who transport fuels over them.
Interstate highways weren't paid for by bonds (the Mackinac Bridge was built before the Interstates were signed into law). They were paid for by the Highway Trust Fund, which is (mostly) paid for by fuel taxes.
Ok so what if the taxes went to the HTF and then to projects...same difference :roll:

Honestly though public transportation never pays its own way so it is kind of a bad start to assume profitability. One must instead look at the cost/benefit ratio.
It might be the "same difference" in the end, but it's always good to clarify the facts. PatAzo said the Interstates were financed with bonds. They weren't. House Democrats specifically objected to the sale of bonds to finance construction, so a trust fund was established instead.

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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Large projects like the interstate system and Mackinac Bridge are built with borrowed money. When the government borrows money they sells bonds. Michigan is currently issuing bonds to finance highway rebuilding. Bonds are an agreement to repay a debt.
Saturnalia wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:00 pm
Honestly though public transportation never pays its own way so it is kind of a bad start to assume profitability. One must instead look at the cost/benefit ratio.
I intentionally avoided profitability. Transportation infrastructure is rarely a stand alone profit generator. It would be nice to simply say "taxes" but there is not a well-hole of money at Fort Knox to pay for whatever we want. Identify the revenue source.

The A2TC thread pops up from time to time with the same range of posts. It's either cool or it's a fool errand. It would be interesting to hear a little more thought to it. So....

1) What are the benefits to society?

2) How would you pay for it?

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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project

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PatAzo wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:39 am

1) What are the benefits to society?

2) How would you pay for it?
If you look at the issue more broadly, there is merit to trains vs road travel. That being said, I PERSONALLY see this as something that could be a seasonal venture, but what they "want" is not realistic necessarily. In the United States we tend to look at passenger rail as a waste, and not profitable, when we actually should look at how it could improve our lives beyond that. For every dollar lost in Amtrak/ Passenger rail there is SOME sort of benefit beyond profit/ loss. You have 1 less car tearing up the road and putting CO2 into the atmosphere. There is 1 more parking space open in downtown Traverse City for those who do not have the option of taking the train. There is less of a chance of a road accident both due to less cars being on the road.

1. Trains are MUCH better for the environment for transporting goods and people than trucks or cars. Getting more people in trains and wanting to ride trains would have clear environmental impacts if implemented on a large scale. It would also make using highways and roads those who need to use them much easier. It would help keep roads in better shape, which would help keep cars from sustaining road damage. This would prevent people from having to replace their cars as often due to damage or normal wear and tear saving consumers money. Per passenger mile rail is also much safer than road, so you would have safer transportation, and by taking cars off the road less accidents per passenger mile.

2. By having a service that people want to use, it will make money (I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THAT, but rather that is how rail makes money). If Michigan services to Chicago was actually reliable, and TRUE high speed rail (or at least lets get to 125mph where we can), it would make the service MUCH more attractive than it currently is. If Amtrak could make an overall average (average speed of the entire trip, not moving average) speed of 79mph between Detroit and Chicago the trip would be 3.5 hours (281 rail miles/ 79mph). To meet this you would obviously need to have fast and efficient station times, and your areas where speed drops below 79 need to be offset by 110mph (or in an ideal world 125mph) running. As an additional reminder Amtrak was inches from profitability before covid-19.

Moving people does not always make money, but it can generate revenue for communities, connect our country, create jobs, and increase production and GDP. In America too often we look at "How does this benefit me" or "NOT MY TAX DOLLARS" which causes people to put down projects like this. As stated above I do not believe what this project is looking for is realistic, but I do see the overall benefit to a better rail system.

Below are some sources of information regarding my above reply. While the environmental and infrastructure impact has less debate to it, I do understand that for every article on Amtrak's profitably there is one that says trains will NEVER make money.

Sources:
Environmental concerns:
https://sciencenorway.no/climate-change ... ds/1856967
https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint
https://www.aar.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... -Sheet.pdf
https://www.treehugger.com/plane-train- ... nt-4868815

Damage to roads/ cars
https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2017/06/22/m ... our-roads/
https://www.lesschwab.com/article/does- ... tires.html

Trains making money?
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... -money.asp
https://skift.com/2020/11/23/how-the-pa ... e-profits/
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