CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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AARR
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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GTW6401 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:47 pm
GFL has a yard on Baldwin Avenue but I doubt it will ever use rail.
I think they just use this yard to stage dumpsters. There is no recycling material here that I have seen.
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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GFL also now owns the Royal Oak Wastepaper warehouse, which has been served by CN. I'm not sure if another recycling company in Pontiac would use rail.

Now regarding the railroad ROW along Joslyn Road, and why it curved east. They had to go around Judah Lake.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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GTW6401 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:47 pm

The line to Romeo was nowhere near that part of Pontiac. That was on the south side of town. Its now the Clinton River Trail.
At the end access to the Romeo Sub was only possible by use of the Belt Line.
GTW considered the Belt Line to Belt Jct as part of the Romeo Sub.
West of Belt Jct to Pontiac Yard was considered part of the Holly Sub.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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The Romeo Sub connected to PO&N Junction east of Baldwin Avenue and hooked south after crossing Joslyn Avenue and would connect to the segment you are speaking about….at least during the final years in the 90s it did.
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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According to GTW siding diagram books available through GTWHS:

The M.A.L. Jct. diamond (about 1900 ft. west of Opdyke Rd. where the Belt Line and the Romeo Sub crossed) was gone by 1934.
By 1947, at M.A.L. Jct. everything except for the northeast connector was gone. All moves to the Romeo Sub had to go via Belt Jct., about 800 feet south of Walton Blvd.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Long, long ago in a far distant galaxy, we used to interchange cars to the GTW at Holly. As I recall, the conductor reported the cars destined to "Orion" as cars for "Eames."

https://michigan.hometownlocator.com/ma ... tation.cfm

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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IIRC these were stampings from a Chicago stamping plant
C&O Dispatcher wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:45 am
Long, long ago in a far distant galaxy, we used to interchange cars to the GTW at Holly. As I recall, the conductor reported the cars destined to "Orion" as cars for "Eames."

https://michigan.hometownlocator.com/ma ... tation.cfm
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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AARR wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:01 am
IIRC these were stampings from a Chicago stamping plant
C&O Dispatcher wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:45 am
Long, long ago in a far distant galaxy, we used to interchange cars to the GTW at Holly. As I recall, the conductor reported the cars destined to "Orion" as cars for "Eames."

https://michigan.hometownlocator.com/ma ... tation.cfm
Might have been the old stamping plant in Willow Springs which was part of the BOC (Buick-Olds-Cadillac) Division. Orion was opened originally to build Cadillacs which didn't last long and then went to building Buick and Oldsmobile models.

As for Orion, I sure hope the electric cars catch on or it could be the end of Orion as an assembly plant. GM threatened to close it a few times the years that I worked there. They're doing work on the autonomous vehicles there but that's a long ways off.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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It has been about a month since I last saw the metal scrap yard or stamping plant getting switched. The stamping plant may be down due to production stoppage. Anyone know if they are still getting serviced?
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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AARR wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:16 pm
It has been about a month since I last saw the metal scrap yard or stamping plant getting switched. The stamping plant may be down due to production stoppage. Anyone know if they are still getting serviced?
I don't know if they stamp for anyone else besides Orion and they (Orion) are on layoff next week but I don't know about the past month.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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conrailmike wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:13 pm
I don't know if they stamp for anyone else besides Orion and they (Orion) are on layoff next week but I don't know about the past month.
The stamping plant's product that goes by rail to Texas from what I've heard
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by conrailmike »

AARR wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:48 pm
conrailmike wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:13 pm
I don't know if they stamp for anyone else besides Orion and they (Orion) are on layoff next week but I don't know about the past month.
The stamping plant's product that goes by rail to Texas from what I've heard
You are correct sir, they stamp for Orion and Arlington Assembly - Full size SUVs

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/com ... g/pmc.html

I don't see any announcement of down time in Texas, it feels as though there are "rolling layoffs" happening with the part/chip shortage

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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A few years ago CN approached some Michigan shortlines about purchasing the Orion Sub from the bridge over Dixie Highway to the GM plant. The theory was that a shortline could operate it cheaper than CN and thus lower shipping rates and maybe get back the GM Orion Plant business for CN to long-haul out of Pontiac. Supposedly, the reason GM wasn't shipping finished cars out by rail for so many years was that it was too expensive to do so with what CN had to charge. I can see that as they needed to support and maintain a long branchline and multiple crews to service them. CN talked to two, maybe three, shortlines. But they never sold it. Maybe they were just sending a warning shot to their unions about operating this line or something?

This part of GTW's Cass City Sub, was upgraded to here when the GM Orion Plant was built in the 1980's. They built a huge freight yard just outside of the plant, including a two-track mainline through it, of which little remains. A new yard office (that recently the CN police were using as their headquarters). GM has miles of tracks inside their plant rusting away including a huge autorack loading facility on the south along Brown Road. I think the State of Michigan paid for most of the yards and trackage. For years welded rail ran alongside the line from Walton to the spur to Orion Yard but it was never installed and only recently picked up. The line to the new yard and plant was basically a long siding off the former Case City Subdivision, which soon thereafter was abandoned just north of the GM spur at Joslyn (though there was a wye here originally).

And, in answer to someone's question, the Romeo Sub from MAL Junction on the Holly in Pontiac to near Opdyke Road was abandoned in the 1930's when GTW built the Pontiac Belt Line and used it from Belt Line Junction to get to the Romeo Sub, winding its way around the east side of Pontiac to do so. This way Romeo sub trains could just leave out of Pontiac Yard. It reached GM's Yellow Cab Plant on the south side of Pontiac.

Supposedly the reason for building the Belt Line was to block NYC from building a line from its mainline in Rochester to reach all the auto plants being built in Pontiac. Sort of a physical barrier that NYC would have to seek permission to pass (and would not be given). GTW already serviced the Yellow Cab Plant from its Holly Sub mainline. And it already serviced the other GM plants in Pontiac via the PO&N mainline that started on the Holly Sub at the old depot on Huron Street. So though the Belt Line was an upgrade it really wasn't needed except as protection from NYC. It connected with the Holly Sub at MP 22.5 right behind my house at one time but supposedly after the first ceremonial train run that switch was spiked and never used again, all trains coming from the north out of Pontiac Yard over the Beltline.

The Pontiac Belt Line was very modern construction at the time with no at-grade road crossings and was signaled, typical of the heyday railroad construction years of the 1920's and 1930's in Michigan. The only part that still exists is from Belt Line Junction just west of Joslyn Road to Pontiac Yard.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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The Romeo Sub might never have had a diamond at the Belt Line, but originally a connection existed in the SW quadrant of M.A.L. Jct. between it and the belt line (GT map, 5/2/34). Until at least well into the 1970s the Romeo Sub trackage from M.A.L. Crossing to past Sanford St. was kept in place to serve industries.

I know this is better suited to the history board, oh well. I looked up some stuff in old Free Press articles online. It wasn't the New York Central that drove the GT to build the eastern part of the belt line, but the Pere Marquette. There was a ton of information, the following only touches on the main points.

When the Belt Line project was announced in Oct. 1926, GT said it would go only as far as "the intersection of Columbia road and the PO&N tracks north of the city," indicating that it would curve to the south and terminate at that point. Construction started by May 1927.

Then on 9/30/1927 the Pere Marquette announced it had asked the ICC for permission for a fantastic scheme. It proposed to build from St. Clair (opposite Courtright ON, which it was to build a line to presumably from St. Thomas area) through Lenox, Richmond, Pontiac and then 17 miles to tie into the main line at Wixom. Included in the total was a 7 mile belt line through Pontiac, as the PM had bought the franchise of the Pontiac Belt Line Co., organized in 1922. President Frank H. Alfred said this plan would eliminate the congestion at the Detroit yards, and that space had been worked out with all the GM plants for PM's tracks.

On the very next day, the GT system asked the ICC for permission to extend its belt line project from the PO&N southward down to the Holly Sub.

A big hearing was held at Detroit's Statler Hotel in Dec. 1927 for both sides to present their case to the ICC. The Chamber of Commerce and head of GM's Oakland division pledged their support to PM's plan. Some Pontiac citizens noted that they had approached the GT/CN about building a belt line east of the PO&N, but CN told the city it would have to pay for the right of way. The PM then spent $1,250,000 of its own money on right of way acquisition.

The ICC denied the PM's application on 5/26/1928, after much argument by Pontiac interests in favor of the PM, at one point requesting that PM and GT operate it jointly.

The belt line was completed in June 1931, with an inaugural special carrying 1,000 passengers.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Manistique wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:17 am
A few years ago CN approached some Michigan shortlines about purchasing the Orion Sub from the bridge over Dixie Highway to the GM plant. The theory was that a shortline could operate it cheaper than CN and thus lower shipping rates and maybe get back the GM Orion Plant business for CN to long-haul out of Pontiac. Supposedly, the reason GM wasn't shipping finished cars out by rail for so many years was that it was too expensive to do so with what CN had to charge. I can see that as they needed to support and maintain a long branchline and multiple crews to service them. CN talked to two, maybe three, shortlines. But they never sold it. Maybe they were just sending a warning shot to their unions about operating this line or something?

This part of GTW's Cass City Sub, was upgraded to here when the GM Orion Plant was built in the 1980's. They built a huge freight yard just outside of the plant, including a two-track mainline through it, of which little remains. A new yard office (that recently the CN police were using as their headquarters). GM has miles of tracks inside their plant rusting away including a huge autorack loading facility on the south along Brown Road. I think the State of Michigan paid for most of the yards and trackage. For years welded rail ran alongside the line from Walton to the spur to Orion Yard but it was never installed and only recently picked up. The line to the new yard and plant was basically a long siding off the former Case City Subdivision, which soon thereafter was abandoned just north of the GM spur at Joslyn (though there was a wye here originally).

And, in answer to someone's question, the Romeo Sub from MAL Junction on the Holly in Pontiac to near Opdyke Road was abandoned in the 1930's when GTW built the Pontiac Belt Line and used it from Belt Line Junction to get to the Romeo Sub, winding its way around the east side of Pontiac to do so. This way Romeo sub trains could just leave out of Pontiac Yard. It reached GM's Yellow Cab Plant on the south side of Pontiac.

Supposedly the reason for building the Belt Line was to block NYC from building a line from its mainline in Rochester to reach all the auto plants being built in Pontiac. Sort of a physical barrier that NYC would have to seek permission to pass (and would not be given). GTW already serviced the Yellow Cab Plant from its Holly Sub mainline. And it already serviced the other GM plants in Pontiac via the PO&N mainline that started on the Holly Sub at the old depot on Huron Street. So though the Belt Line was an upgrade it really wasn't needed except as protection from NYC. It connected with the Holly Sub at MP 22.5 right behind my house at one time but supposedly after the first ceremonial train run that switch was spiked and never used again, all trains coming from the north out of Pontiac Yard over the Beltline.

The Pontiac Belt Line was very modern construction at the time with no at-grade road crossings and was signaled, typical of the heyday railroad construction years of the 1920's and 1930's in Michigan. The only part that still exists is from Belt Line Junction just west of Joslyn Road to Pontiac Yard.
IIRC it might have been in one of Byron Babbish's Detroit railfan chronicles but the NYC at the turn of the 20th century realized its mistake of not entering Michigan and taking advantage of the auto industry like the GTW did and became jealous thus the purchase of the Michigan Central and one of the legs of the iconic "big four" the idea was that NYC would attempt to enter Detroit which they successfully did purchasing the MC and push north to Pontiac and prevent the GTW from building to Chicago. Obviously, Pontiac was the heart and soul of the GTW and where almost all of the Major lines and businesses originated for them and they were going to be darn if they let any railroad take advantage of Pontiac until they were strangled to the point where they could outright purchase them. The GTW finally came out of its shell and defended against the New York Central by building into Jackson MI so the NYC could not build a wall northward preventing the GTW from continuing west. The GTW ramped up track laying and became one of the few times the NYC's cutthroat tactics had failed and thus the GTW Chicago Division was born or in other words the Jackson Subdivision.

(Please let me know if there is anything incorrect about this i'm currently going off of memory if anybody can give a better explanation please feel free to reply i do know for a fact though there was a serious rivalry between the NYC and GTW that meant life or death for the GTW.)

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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GTW Dude-- the NYC&HR (NYC's predecessor), LS&MS and MC had already been under common control (the Vanderbilt family) for nearly 30 years by the time Detroit saw its first automobile in 1896. The GTW was completed to Chicago in 1882 and the line from Pontiac to Jackson in 1884, again well before any automobiles. The Jackson Subdivision was part of the Detroit Division, not Chicago.

Refer to Graydon Meints's books for excellently researched history of all of that and practically all of the rest of Michigan's railroads. Also read "All Aboard" by Willis Dunbar.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Steve B wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:49 pm
GTW Dude-- the NYC&HR (NYC's predecessor), LS&MS and MC had already been under common control (the Vanderbilt family) for nearly 30 years by the time Detroit saw its first automobile in 1896. The GTW was completed to Chicago in 1882 and the line from Pontiac to Jackson in 1884, again well before any automobiles. The Jackson Subdivision was part of the Detroit Division, not Chicago.

Refer to Graydon Meints's books for excellently researched history of all of that and practically all of the rest of Michigan's railroads. Also read "All Aboard" by Willis Dunbar.
Yikes, looks like I was way off on that one. went back into Byron Babbish's books in Book 2 which i had read and could only find in the beginning Is "The lore is that GTW went to great lengths over the to make sure no other railroad ever had access to Pontiac" looks like I'm either mixing up info or i seriously need to brush up on my history. I do in fact have "Alll Aboard" By Willis Dunbar i've had it on the shelf for a while and haven't read it guess ill have to put it up next in the queue.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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GTW didn't build the line to Jackson, the Michigan Air Line did. GTW later acquired the line east from Jackson.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by Manistique »

Just a few more thoughts and observations about Pontiac and GTW's Belt Line there...

The PO&N started at the old GTW depot on the Holly at Huron Street (M59). It headed straight north out of there to Caseville at the tip of the thumb. In the two or three miles between the depot and what became PON Junction when the Belt Line was built there was a ton of industry. Mostly GM including the assembly plant where they last build the Pontiac Fiero, what looked like a trim plant, and a large foundry, among other buildings. CN still services the north half of this portion of the PO&N by switching the GM Metal Plant that remains there, taking scrap out in gondolas. I had heard but could never confirm that GM kept a switcher of its own assigned to the foundry. It must have been a very busy few miles of track at one time. After the new Belt Line was built in the 1930's this portion of the PO&N was rolled into it and probably mostly accessed from PON Jct instead of from the depot. I know the Cass City Local came out of North Pontiac Yard over the new Belt Line. I have never seen any photographs from this area taken back then.

For years there was an unused team track on the PO&N just across the street north of the depot. Widely spaced tracks and pavers between them for the carts/trucks. I never saw it used except for GTW having an old wooden and steel boxcar there, maybe storing stuff. This remained way into the 1980's, maybe later. The PO&N engine house and offices were at the north end of this team track and I think one or the other is still standing.

And from what I can tell, on the new Belt Line just west of PON Jct, GTW switched the large GM Parts Depot there. Then there was nothing until it got on the Romeo Sub near the end of the Belt Line from what I can tell. From Auburn Road south the Belt Line was built through a swamp and is elevated above it. There is a historic bridge still located near where the Romeo Sub joined it. Though not a rail to trail on this side of Opdyke Road, someone keeps it pretty clear for walking or riding a bike or cross country skiing. A long siding was late in its life put in just south of Auburn Road to snake through a swamp to the Beer Distribution Plant that was once located on the corner of Auburn and Opdyke but I only remember seeing a car spotted there once. The end of the Romeo Sub was near already when this happened.

Yellow Cab Plant and the new (1975) GM Assembly Plant on Opdyke Road were always serviced from Yellow Cab Yard off the Holly Sub from what I know, the Belt Line being pulled south of where it veered east to start the Romeo Sub a long time ago, before my time of train watching (the mid-1970's). I think they had a name for where the Belt Line and Romeo Sub met here. I do not know if there was ever a wye.

Where the Romeo Sub would have continued as part of the Michigan Airline to the Holly Sub was pulled up right after the Belt Line was built from here though, as mentioned, some of it remained near the Holly Sub at MAL Junction to service some customers. You can sort of follow the tree line of the old right of way through the Pontiac neighborhoods still and close to Pontiac there are a few buildings on the right-of-way that probably received service by GTW back then that remain. I think the last customer was a scrap yard located just east of Woodward here and GTW pulled the plug to them in the 1980's, probably because of the need to maintain a crossing over busy Woodward Avenue to get to them.

And interesting railroad line and history.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by DaveO »

Suspect the right-of-way is kept clear for ITC/DTE access to electric lines.

The MAL/Belt Line was MAL Junction until removal to only a curve.
The MAL/Holly sub was MAL Crossing and later MAL Junction sometime after removal of the above.

During later times on the Belt Line it was Belt Junction. On the Cass City sub it was PON Junction. Makes lots of sense :roll:

There apparently was(back when the Belt Line ended at the Holly) a 3 quadrant wye(no northwest) at the junction of the Air Line and Belt Line.

But like in many other places, things changed over time. The answer for one year is likely to be different in another year.

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