110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by ns8401 »

PatAzo wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:37 pm
Like the green segment on the map...
You and I know that… you can’t expect everybody to connect those dots. Heck you can’t even expect them to look at the map that closely. They can’t even figure out how to read a destination sign correctly on a bus without asking where it’s going anyways. Expecting them to connect all the dots on a map is optimistic. Spelling it out nice and slow would be the best way to do it. Plus I thought my made up line sounded pretty good.
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by justalurker66 »

DaveO wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 6:58 am
There's no horse here to even beat.
And yet the flogging continues.

Just be happy that the 110mph exists.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by ns8401 »

justalurker66 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:03 pm
DaveO wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 6:58 am
There's no horse here to even beat.
And yet the flogging continues.

Just be happy that the 110mph exists.
Absolutely. What will be interesting to see is how complete it is when they get it east to Dearborn. I suspect it’ll always have some gaps in it.
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by coasterrider »

Yet ITCS issues once again force Amtrak to run 59mph max speed.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Is there new Michigan Line thread on here? I'm curious if any work is currently being done between Jackson and Ypsi. I can never find a place that compiles what's all going on on MDOT's website.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by SD80MAC »

I wondered why 352 was going what I perceived to be "slow" through Lawton the other day. If they can only do 60 max, that would also partly explain why the train was as late as it was, too.
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

SD80MAC wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 9:44 am
I wondered why 352 was going what I perceived to be "slow" through Lawton the other day. If they can only do 60 max, that would also partly explain why the train was as late as it was, too.
I think the original poster meant 79, not 59. 79mph is the maximum authorized speed you can do without some sort of PTC.
:roll:

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by Buster Manning »

not any more....new ptc guidelines state that without PTC ( which I don't know why ITCS was lumped into this---all the 'experts' told me that ITCS wasn't PTC), max speed for psgr trains is 59 mph, 49 mph (or 40, depending on certain types of haz-mats train is hauling) for freight trains......unless the train is in cab-signal territory, then it is posted timetable speeds....I should mention, these speeds are for trains in PTC enabled territory and the PTC fails.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Buster Manning wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 11:08 pm
not any more....new ptc guidelines state that without PTC ( which I don't know why ITCS was lumped into this---all the 'experts' told me that ITCS wasn't PTC), max speed for psgr trains is 59 mph, 49 mph (or 40, depending on certain types of haz-mats train is hauling) for freight trains......unless the train is in cab-signal territory, then it is posted timetable speeds....I should mention, these speeds are for trains in PTC enabled territory and the PTC fails.
AFAIK/IIRC ITCS is different because it is "vital" in railroad signalling terms, which means it is supposed to be as fail-safe as signal circuitry. The FRA did not require PTC to be "vital", so most railroads went with an overlay-based system like Wabtec's I-ETMS. That ultimately means that it cannot function on its own without the signal system, among other things.

There is a lot of talk in the industry about how to reduce delays due to PTC's larger safety margins which slow trains down where they wouldn't have before, but IMHO the real issue is PTC's bugginess and it's habit of putting trains in emergency/suppression unnecessarily or requiring that it be run cut-out with speed restrictions, all of which create many more delay minutes than simply slowing down early for speed restrictions when everything else is running nominally.
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by PatAzo »

ITCS is a form of PTC.

PTC in my opinion is overly complex for what was needed. Moving blocks might be great on crowded commuter lines but freight railroad faced more significant delays at terminals where moving block do no good. For the most part trains need to know two things. 1)Is it authorized to be where it is? 2) Is it authorized to move as fast as it is. They did it near 100 years ago with far less technology at their disposal.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

Buster Manning wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 11:08 pm
not any more....new ptc guidelines state that without PTC ( which I don't know why ITCS was lumped into this---all the 'experts' told me that ITCS wasn't PTC), max speed for psgr trains is 59 mph, 49 mph (or 40, depending on certain types of haz-mats train is hauling) for freight trains......unless the train is in cab-signal territory, then it is posted timetable speeds....I should mention, these speeds are for trains in PTC enabled territory and the PTC fails.

I wasn’t aware of this! When did it change?
:roll:

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by PatAzo »

Who are the "experts"? The FRA website says ITCS meets the requirements of PTC.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by Saturnalia »

PatAzo wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 3:32 pm
Who are the "experts"? The FRA website says ITCS meets the requirements of PTC.
ITCS qualifies as a PTC system but is fundamentally different than the non-vital systems like Wabtec’s offering that almost everybody else uses. It goes above and beyond what is required for the government-regulated PTC mandate.
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by Tom49801 »

NSSD70ACe wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 5:56 pm
SD80MAC wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 9:44 am
I wondered why 352 was going what I perceived to be "slow" through Lawton the other day. If they can only do 60 max, that would also partly explain why the train was as late as it was, too.
I think the original poster meant 79, not 59. 79mph is the maximum authorized speed you can do without some sort of PTC.
79mph is the maximum allowable speed if a Cab Code signal system isn't used. The PRR and US&S (Union Switch & Signal now owned by Hitachi Rail STS & was previously Ansaldo) had worked on an improved cab code system utilizing 100Hz AC "pulses" & had placed it into service around 1926. Amtrak's Northeast Corridor about 15 years ago or so implemented a more advanced Cab Code system that utilizes 100Hz & 250Hz pulsed at code rates of 0, 75, 120, 180 & 270 pulses per minute (PPM) that provides for 9 different Cab Signal aspects vs. the original 4 aspects that had been used since the PRR days utilizing 0 code (Restricting), 75ppm (Approach), 120ppm (Approach Medium) & 180ppm (Clear).

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by SD80MAC »

While 79 mph is the normal max without PTC, Amtrak is currently running on the AML with ITCS cut out with a maximum authorized speed of 59 mph.
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by Saturnalia »

SD80MAC wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 11:52 pm
While 79 mph is the normal max without PTC, Amtrak is currently running on the AML with ITCS cut out with a maximum authorized speed of 59 mph.
As of today, it looks like ITCS must be back in service, train 351 was running 100+ according to asm.transitdocs.com

https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2021/5/23/351 (look at the map and click on the dots, it will give you the speed reading)

Also, it is worth noting that as of today, Amtrak is no longer limiting capacity on its trains nationwide. They will book up to 100% of regular capacity now.
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by justalurker66 »

NSSD70ACe wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 5:56 pm
I think the original poster meant 79, not 59. 79mph is the maximum authorized speed you can do without some sort of PTC.
Current Law:

On and after January 17, 2012, where a passenger train is permitted to operate at a speed of 60 or more miles per hour, or a freight train is permitted to operate at a speed of 50 or more miles per hour, a block signal system complying with the provisions of this part shall be installed, unless an FRA approved PTC system meeting the requirements of this part for the subject speed and other operating conditions is installed.
(The change being that active PTC relieves the railroad of having a block signalling system.)

On and after December 31, 2015, where any train is permitted to operate at a speed of 80 or more miles per hour, a PTC system complying with the provisions of subpart I shall be installed and operational, unless FRA approval to continue to operate with an automatic cab signal, automatic train stop, or automatic train control system complying with the provisions of this part has been justified to, and approved by, the Associate Administrator.
(The change being PTC is required unless the FRA approves not having PTC. Prior to Dec 31, 2015, one of the control systems was required for 80+.)

79 MPH is the maximum without PTC, but block signals are required. If ITCS being down means the block signals are down, then Amtrak is stuck at 59 MPH. (The overlay systems are still good for 79 MPH as long as block signals are functional.)

Amtrak is free, of course, to set lower speeds than allowed by law. They can't set faster speeds than allowed by law.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by Saturnalia »

And I believe the hiccup is that ITCS is so intertwined with the block signals that it essentially set them back to 59, based on what I’ve read here. I’d really like to know from somebody who works out there though!!
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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by DaveO »

I thought ITCS was intended as an overlay. The current signaling system remained and if ITCS was down the current signal system rules would apply.
The point of ITCS back then was to get higher speeds without having to upgrade the current signal system and using expensive physical upgrades.
Yes, none of the changes made for ITCS were cheap in the long run.

Lots has changed in the world since then and apparently how ITCS is used is one of those things that changed.

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Re: 110mph for Kzoo-Albion, restoring another Wolverine round trip

Unread post by ns8401 »

DaveO wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 6:40 am
I thought ITCS was intended as an overlay. The current signaling system remained and if ITCS was down the current signal system rules would apply.
The point of ITCS back then was to get higher speeds without having to upgrade the current signal system and using expensive physical upgrades.
Yes, none of the changes made for ITCS were cheap in the long run.

Lots has changed in the world since then and apparently how ITCS is used is one of those things that changed.
How much did getting rid of the bug prone Conrail signal system in favor of the new Amtrak one play a role in how ITCS is implemented and how it interacts with it would be my question…
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