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Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:54 pm
by ~Z~
Posting this for DickPearce:
DickPearce wrote:
I am working on a claim in which I am trying to determine where Ford F Series PU trucks assembled in the Oakville, Ontario plant would have crossed the US Canadian Border, i.e., I need to know into which state the vehicle on the rail car first “touched” US soil. The complicating factor is the truck was assembled October 22, 1993. I was originally told by a long time Ford dealer in Portland, Oregon the vehicles arrived by rail and were mixed for delivery in a rail yard in Wisconsin. Through contact with Canadian Pacific Railway and Canadian National it appears the Oakville area is CN territory and I have found a YouTube video showing a train with car carrier cars only that were headed to Windsor. Windsor County Township is south of Lansing and I have found the CN Cory Rail Yard on the map there. My guess is currently Ford vehicles arrive by rail from Oakville into this yard. I saw your website and thought you might have a “fan” that might know what was going on in October of 1993. I have asked this information from Ford’s attorneys and they are playing heads in the sand with me so far so I am trying to find out so I can ask them to confirm what I have found out. I thought I would enter your group and post the above question and am stuck on the csx question. If you can help get registered or if you have any suggestion on how I might find the answers to my questions, please let me know. Thank you.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:56 pm
by ~Z~
Couple replies from the chat box:
9xs wrote:Can you open the inside of the car door and get the information?
If not look at the VIN it should start with 2F
Then it should end with a series of letters and numbers, the letter after the P in 10th is the one we need, that is where the vehicle was manufactured
DaveO wrote: DickPearce contact the American Association of Railroads and see if they made a 1993 Automotive Facility Guide. The current versions list the facilities and what customers use them for inbound and/or outbound vehicles. But that won’t give you a definitive answer, only a place to start.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:02 am
by Dan Cluley
I would assume that the train of racks headed from Oakville to Windsor refers to "Windsor" the Ontario city across the river from Detroit not "Windsor Twp" in Eaton Co.
As far as I know, Cory has never been used for anything other than loading GM vehicles built in the Lansing area, and it didn't even exist in 1993. Lansing Delta plant was build around 2006, and I think Cory went in around the same time.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:22 am
by Doktor No
OMG...get out a MAP! And those factories in Canada more then likely have recipracle (sp?) switching agreements. And you are looking that far back? I won't even wish you good luck!
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:07 pm
by justalurker66
"I need to know into which state the vehicle on the rail car first “touched” US soil."
Where did the truck touch US soil or where did the train touch US soil? I suppose it is an interesting piece of trivia where one's classic vehicle entered the country but built for sale in the US (not originally sold in Canada and imported later) is the key difference. It sounds like the vehicle was first sold in the US.
In 1993 where did customs accept the vehicle for import to the US? Physically I'd expect the wheels of the train to cross the border from Windsor, Ontario, Canada to Detroit, Michigan, USA. But where did US CBP accept the import? Probably Michigan.
Other than curiosity, does it matter where the truck "touched US soil"?
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:00 pm
by DLM
In the year 1993, did auto racks fit through the CN Port Huron or CP Detroit tunnels? If no, the train might have crossed the bridge into Buffalo, NY to avoid the tunnels. I can't imagine it would have gone to western Canada and then turned south. My guess would be the CN running a dedicated auto rack train through the Port Huron tunnel to Chicago where the train was handed off to a western railroad or railroads.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:36 am
by Dan Cluley
DLM wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:00 pm
In the year 1993, did auto racks fit through the CN Port Huron or CP Detroit tunnels? If no, the train might have crossed the bridge into Buffalo, NY to avoid the tunnels. I can't imagine it would have gone to western Canada and then turned south. My guess would be the CN running a dedicated auto rack train through the Port Huron tunnel to Chicago where the train was handed off to a western railroad or railroads.
In '93 they were working on enlarging one bore of the Detroit-Windsor tunnel, but until that was finished autoracks didn't fit. They were definitely floating racks across the river on the NS boats, but I don't know what sort of quantities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh7088lFCGU
10:00-15:00 shows Windsor tunnel & dock views.
At Sarnia/Port Huron CN was still using the old tunnel and racks didn't fit there either. I think the new tunnel opened about '96. There was a car float operation there too, but I don't know if they used it for autoracks?
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:44 am
by DaveO
Of course if this vehicle was sold in Oregon the CN or CP likely didn't short haul themselves unless subject to a contractual route.
I'm only hearing crickets coming from the direction of the question asker.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:44 am
by C&O Dispatcher
They used to float lots of auto racks at both Windsor/Detroit and Sarnia/Port Huron. We floated many on Chessie at Port Huron before tunnels could handle them. I can't speak to exactly what was happening in 1993. I seem to recall that most of what we floated on Chessie at PH were loads headed east for Suspension Bridge and interchanged to connections into New York.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:14 pm
by justalurker66
Fortunately whether the cars crossed at Port Huron or Detroit or crossed by tunnel or boat they still crossed from Ontario to Michigan. Only a route through Buffalo would change that answer to the question of "what state ?". Oakville is far enough east (nearToronto) that Buffalo would not be too far out of the way, but Windsor was mentioned.
As far as "crickets" ... note that ~Z~ posted the question on the behalf of the person with the question - and that post was made less than 40 hours ago. It may take time to relay the answers and get any follow up questions.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:01 pm
by DaveO
He has been active on the site. He is likely an attorney in Portland, Oregon.
We're doing the work for him. So some kind of reply would be appropriate.
I wouldn't make the assumption that the vehicle entered the USA through Michigan.
CN and CP would likely haul the vehicles from Oakville to Vancouver unless their contract stated otherwise.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:25 pm
by Jetlink
He also originally posted the question in the chat room. May not have figured out that z made a forum post. I bet Z may have sent him a message of some sort letting him know though. If he is a lawyer I'd be cautious. You'll end up getting subpoenaed or be in a deposition before you know it.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:08 pm
by Steve B
Did Pearce attempt to ask the poster of the YouTube video what he meant about mentioning a Windsor destination? Why does he figure "Windsor" meant something other than Windsor ON, or does he even know of Windsor ON's existence?
The dealer invoice didn't provide a routing? Was the dealer invoice found or obtainable? In 1980 Chevrolet had a space for "Car No. or Route" on those. Obviously I don't know what Ford ones looked like or if they're available on microfilm from back then like a lot of GM's.
It's extremely out there asking a fan message board for info that can't, in the absence of shipping documents or testimony from Ford or RR personnel, be proven one way or another 28 years later.
I know it's not our business, but one wonders what the claim is about. If there's a problem with the vehicle from the factory, the warranty and chance for a recall expired a long time ago!
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:14 pm
by justalurker66
DaveO wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:01 pm
CN and CP would likely haul the vehicles from Oakville to Vancouver unless their contract stated otherwise.
I would not consider Vancouver to be the default destination for Canadian built US sold vehicles.
CN/GTW to Chicago and then switched wherever they need to go for delivery. Unless stated otherwise.
Trivia Note: 1993 would be before CN ownership of Wisconsin Central (and Illinois Central).
The history of the exact vehicle in question is what would be needed. We can all make educated guesses as to how a truck may have made its way from the manufacturing plant to wherever it is now. My first stop would probably be CarFax or another VIN tracking service to see where the vehicle was first sold and start searching from there. But then I am not a personal injury/insurance lawyer who is asking random rail fans on an internet chat site.
Does it matter where the truck "touched US soil"? It may matter WHEN it first touched US soil (if the vehicle was not first sold in the US or was exported and re-imported). Questions best answered by tracking the individual vehicle - not asking random people (however knowledgeable) on the Internet.
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:15 am
by DaveO
Jetlink wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:25 pm
You'll end up getting subpoenaed or be in a deposition before you know it.
The Sgt Schultz defense will protect you
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:15 pm
by Doktor No
Might as well ask who the crew was on the tren that brought the truk. I KNOW NUTHIINK!
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:34 am
by conrailmike
Seems like that will be pretty hard to track down. I know with GM, it's always been said that once the vehicle heads out the back door and to the yard, it becomes the "property" of the shipping company. We can track when a vehicle was built and when it rolled off the line with PVI and VIN numbers but after that... good luck
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:40 am
by DaveO
Nowadays I know Toyota can tell you the location of the railcar it's on. Whether your dealer will be bothered to do that...
Re: Ford Motor Vehicle Train Deliveries from Oakville, Ontario
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:38 am
by Chip
DaveO wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:40 am
Nowadays I know Toyota can tell you the location of the railcar it's on. Whether your dealer will be bothered to do that...
Ford can too, I do it for people all the time.