Detroit and Mackinaw #8

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MQT1223
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Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by MQT1223 »

Anyone got any images to share when the Detroit and Mackinaw ran their ex. Michigan Alkaline 0-6-0 in their short lived and largely overlooked steam program? I have always had a fascination with #8's life on the D&M. Its hard to find pictures of her in service. Where did the D&M even get it and what was the purpose of acquiring and running it? How did they use her? Why was #8 shut down after less then 10 years of service for the D&M? There are rumors of the Henry Ford restoring her to operational condition since they got done with the extensive rebuild of #7 last year. I think that she would be a great fit for the Weiser Railroad, and it keeps with the trend of operating Michigan locomotives.
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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by iandt »

There are two pictures of D&M #8 in operation on the RR Picture Archives site, as well as a few of her at the Henry Ford, here:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... x?id=63758

Last summer I asked the roundhouse staff about #8 during a visit to GFV, one man said that with #7 up and running, there is little need to restore #8 for daily passenger service there. He said they may begin working on it, but a restoration would take decades, for they wouldn't be restoring it because of any pressing operational demand, but rather to have ongoing engine work in the roundhouse as a display for guests. I was a little disappointed when he said this; I'd love to see #8 running, though after following the #7 project for almost 10 years I feel spoiled to see it finally running again :D

At any rate, they probably want to finish their caboose project so that they have another roundhouse stall available for the running engines before they parked #8 in there.

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by MP73point4 »

Detroit & Mackinac never ran #8 in any type of excursion service nor had any steam program. The engine was owned by, and used at, the Huron Cement plant in Alpena for many years and then sat rusting away in the Fivenson's Iron & Metal scrapyard across the street from the roundhouse in Alpena following retirement. The D&M bought it, restored it, and donated it to the Henry Ford museum. It did operate under its own power from Tawas to Dearborn but that was one of the very few times it ran beyond Tawas. It did not see 10 years of service on the D&M as it was donated shortly after it was returned to service.
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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

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iandt wrote:There are two pictures of D&M #8 in operation on the RR Picture Archives site, as well as a few of her at the Henry Ford, here:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... x?id=63758

Last summer I asked the roundhouse staff about #8 during a visit to GFV, one man said that with #7 up and running, there is little need to restore #8 for daily passenger service there. He said they may begin working on it, but a restoration would take decades, for they wouldn't be restoring it because of any pressing operational demand, but rather to have ongoing engine work in the roundhouse as a display for guests. I was a little disappointed when he said this; I'd love to see #8 running, though after following the #7 project for almost 10 years I feel spoiled to see it finally running again :D

At any rate, they probably want to finish their caboose project so that they have another roundhouse stall available for the running engines before they parked #8 in there.
Yeah aren't they building that caboose from scratch? I figured that's the only thing keeping #8 outside at this point. #7 is massive for the type of railroad they are running so I feel #8 would be a good fit. Isn't #8 in good shape? I would love to see her run. The tender trucks for #8 were rebuilt last year when things were wrapping up on #7, for years the tender sat on blocks. Although it is not connected to the original frame it is sitting on the frame with rebuilt trucks.
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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

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MP73point4 wrote:Detroit & Mackinac never ran #8 in any type of excursion service nor had any steam program. The engine was owned by, and used at, the Huron Cement plant in Alpena for many years and then sat rusting away in the Fivenson's Iron & Metal scrapyard across the street from the roundhouse in Alpena following retirement. The D&M bought it, restored it, and donated it to the Henry Ford museum. It did operate under its own power from Tawas to Dearborn but that was one of the very few times it ran beyond Tawas. It did not see 10 years of service on the D&M as it was donated shortly after it was returned to service.
Well see that's why I put this forum up was because the information on her was sketchy. So the D&M basically bought it for the heck of it only to donate it? Seems like a waste of money to me, but hey, at least #8 is still with us today!
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)

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Re: Detroit & Mackinaw #8

Unread post by j32885 »

Here's a video of D&M 8 I shoot a while back:

Detroit & Mackinac 8 (Museum Tour), 05-07-2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Tgb7VVmKM

Enjoy! 8)

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by TrainWatcher »

Going to put it like this...

I have a feeling you'll see #8 back to steam, at some point, in the not too distant future. However, if anyone has been counting, exactly WHERE are you going to store her once restored? They have Edison, DL&N #7, Torch Lake, and the DT&I Atlantic. I'm not a numbers man by any means, but the roundhouse has 6 tracks, and the DT&I Atlantic isn't going anywhere. Also, there needs to be room for shops for the coaches, and the various static freight cars on the railroad. Not to mention throw in the Navy GE and the Plymouth, and shop space is at a premium. Not like they can expand like Age of Steam...

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by MQT1223 »

TrainWatcher wrote:Going to put it like this...

I have a feeling you'll see #8 back to steam, at some point, in the not too distant future. However, if anyone has been counting, exactly WHERE are you going to store her once restored? They have Edison, DL&N #7, Torch Lake, and the DT&I Atlantic. I'm not a numbers man by any means, but the roundhouse has 6 tracks, and the DT&I Atlantic isn't going anywhere. Also, there needs to be room for shops for the coaches, and the various static freight cars on the railroad. Not to mention throw in the Navy GE and the Plymouth, and shop space is at a premium. Not like they can expand like Age of Steam...
I could see the DT&I Atlantic getting its own little display somewhere in Greenfield village with its own cover, but nothing says there isn't room to add one or two more stalls to the roundhouse just for storage. Plus I remember the stall on the far left side of the roundhouse (if standing on the turntable) going deep into the back of the roundhouse. Unless maybe I am just imagining something else that I saw elsewhere. But if there is anything that will get the boot from the roundhouse and moved somewhere else on the Weiser Railroad its gonna be the DT&I Atlantic. The freight cars are fine where they sit, they are not going anywhere or will be used for a photo freight anytime soon. Just gotta repaint them every few years.
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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by iandt »

MQT1223 wrote: Yeah aren't they building that caboose from scratch? I figured that's the only thing keeping #8 outside at this point. #7 is massive for the type of railroad they are running so I feel #8 would be a good fit. Isn't #8 in good shape? I would love to see her run. The tender trucks for #8 were rebuilt last year when things were wrapping up on #7, for years the tender sat on blocks. Although it is not connected to the original frame it is sitting on the frame with rebuilt trucks.
The caboose they are working on is in fact historic, but the amount of woodwork they've done on it would suggest otherwise. About 10 years ago did Discovery Camp there, while I was in middle school, and they gave us a tour of the caboose. I don't remember any of its original markings, just that it was VERY rotted. Anyway, I also heard (though not from the roundhouse, through unofficial sources) that #8's boiler is in far better shape than #7's when they first began work on it, and even though the tarp they had covering #8 has ripped off, externally, it doesn't look in too bad of shape. Other than mechanical parts in the cab, which are probably all rusted in place from being exposed to the elements. I would still love to see this engine in running condition, it is far better suited to GFV's tight curves than #7 (which is, in fact, the biggest engine they can run on their track).
TrainWatcher wrote:I have a feeling you'll see #8 back to steam, at some point, in the not too distant future. However, if anyone has been counting, exactly WHERE are you going to store her once restored? They have Edison, DL&N #7, Torch Lake, and the DT&I Atlantic. I'm not a numbers man by any means, but the roundhouse has 6 tracks, and the DT&I Atlantic isn't going anywhere. Also, there needs to be room for shops for the coaches, and the various static freight cars on the railroad. Not to mention throw in the Navy GE and the Plymouth, and shop space is at a premium. Not like they can expand like Age of Steam...


Their GE loco isn't stored in the roundhouse, but rather in a grey metal shed toward the back end of their line, near where they're building the new Dearborn station (that's also where they've stored Thomas, I've seen his bright blue shell frequently while looking down the tracks from the station). So that frees up one track (the Plymouth doesn't take up much space at all). I have also seen them store engines outside over night, though this wouldn't be ideal through the winter.

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by MQT1223 »

iandt wrote:
MQT1223 wrote: Yeah aren't they building that caboose from scratch? I figured that's the only thing keeping #8 outside at this point. #7 is massive for the type of railroad they are running so I feel #8 would be a good fit. Isn't #8 in good shape? I would love to see her run. The tender trucks for #8 were rebuilt last year when things were wrapping up on #7, for years the tender sat on blocks. Although it is not connected to the original frame it is sitting on the frame with rebuilt trucks.
The caboose they are working on is in fact historic, but the amount of woodwork they've done on it would suggest otherwise. About 10 years ago did Discovery Camp there, while I was in middle school, and they gave us a tour of the caboose. I don't remember any of its original markings, just that it was VERY rotted. Anyway, I also heard (though not from the roundhouse, through unofficial sources) that #8's boiler is in far better shape than #7's when they first began work on it, and even though the tarp they had covering #8 has ripped off, externally, it doesn't look in too bad of shape. Other than mechanical parts in the cab, which are probably all rusted in place from being exposed to the elements. I would still love to see this engine in running condition, it is far better suited to GFV's tight curves than #7 (which is, in fact, the biggest engine they can run on their track).
TrainWatcher wrote:I have a feeling you'll see #8 back to steam, at some point, in the not too distant future. However, if anyone has been counting, exactly WHERE are you going to store her once restored? They have Edison, DL&N #7, Torch Lake, and the DT&I Atlantic. I'm not a numbers man by any means, but the roundhouse has 6 tracks, and the DT&I Atlantic isn't going anywhere. Also, there needs to be room for shops for the coaches, and the various static freight cars on the railroad. Not to mention throw in the Navy GE and the Plymouth, and shop space is at a premium. Not like they can expand like Age of Steam...


Their GE loco isn't stored in the roundhouse, but rather in a grey metal shed toward the back end of their line, near where they're building the new Dearborn station (that's also where they've stored Thomas, I've seen his bright blue shell frequently while looking down the tracks from the station). So that frees up one track (the Plymouth doesn't take up much space at all). I have also seen them store engines outside over night, though this wouldn't be ideal through the winter.
Yeah, #7 seemed Gigantic for running on that railroad when they first started restoring it. If it wasn't Henry Ford's "Personal" Locomotive then it probably wouldn't have got the attention it did. #7 was stored in the locomotive hall for years with the Allegheny and the other 4-4-0 that got traded to IRM for the B&LE 2-8-0. Why they got that locomotive of all the engines IRM has I would love to know. If I remember correctly #7 had a frame off rebuild to get the boiler back in shape. #8 could pull some really good sized trains if ridership increased and the Weiser Railroad added more "Passenger Cars", or if they decided to do photo freights. All that period rolling stock would look good in the old town setting behind #8. Those 0-6-0's can go through just about anything. Only time all four engines would ever have to be in the roundhouse is during the off season. So is the caboose going to be used on trains or is it just getting a total restoration for display? Some of those steel freight cars that are stored on the line could really use a trip in the paint booth. I'd be curious to the cabooses' heritage.
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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

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MQT1223 wrote: So is the caboose going to be used on trains or is it just getting a total restoration for display? Some of those steel freight cars that are stored on the line could really use a trip in the paint booth. I'd be curious to the cabooses' heritage.
I don't know what the eventual future of the caboose is, but I found its history here:
http://blog.thehenryford.org/2013/06/gr ... -elements/

Ironically, it turns out it was also donated by the D&M, along with "three other cars," which three I would like to know. It would also be cool if they brought it back to its original use, running with passenger trains for riders willing to pay a special charge; I'd certainly like the opportunity. I'll have to ask next time I visit the roundhouse.

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by C&O6084 »

Village article says caboose use ended in 1964? Maybe for that wooden caboose, but the steel cabeese ran well into the 70's.

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

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MQT1223 wrote:#7 was stored in the locomotive hall for years with the Allegheny and the other 4-4-0 that got traded to IRM for the B&LE 2-8-0. Why they got that locomotive of all the engines IRM has I would love to know.
The story I have always been told is that IRM had 3 consolidations and no 4-4-0s. The Henry Ford had 3 4-4-0s and no consolidations. So the trade was arranged, one 4-4-0 in exchange for a 2-8-0.

The irony is that IRM supposedly acquired the B&LE 2-8-0 for the sole purpose for trading it to the Henry Ford. IRM still has 3 2-8-0s: UP 428, LS&I 35, and L&A 99
Apparently I work on GEs now...

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

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Bulby wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:#7 was stored in the locomotive hall for years with the Allegheny and the other 4-4-0 that got traded to IRM for the B&LE 2-8-0. Why they got that locomotive of all the engines IRM has I would love to know.
The story I have always been told is that IRM had 3 consolidations and no 4-4-0s. The Henry Ford had 3 4-4-0s and no consolidations. So the trade was arranged, one 4-4-0 in exchange for a 2-8-0.

The irony is that IRM supposedly acquired the B&LE 2-8-0 for the sole purpose for trading it to the Henry Ford. IRM still has 3 2-8-0s: UP 428, LS&I 35, and L&A 99
Even though the B&LE #154 is an unusual locomotive she is sharp. The IRM got the 4-4-0 that they always wanted and they are happy. Its too bad though because the 4-4-0 they got was a Michigan locomotive. Can't wait to see #428 running and I hope that #35 has a better future somewhere away from IRM. #99 is good where she is.
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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by Bulby »

MQT1223 wrote:
Bulby wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:#7 was stored in the locomotive hall for years with the Allegheny and the other 4-4-0 that got traded to IRM for the B&LE 2-8-0. Why they got that locomotive of all the engines IRM has I would love to know.
The story I have always been told is that IRM had 3 consolidations and no 4-4-0s. The Henry Ford had 3 4-4-0s and no consolidations. So the trade was arranged, one 4-4-0 in exchange for a 2-8-0.

The irony is that IRM supposedly acquired the B&LE 2-8-0 for the sole purpose for trading it to the Henry Ford. IRM still has 3 2-8-0s: UP 428, LS&I 35, and L&A 99
Even though the B&LE #154 is an unusual locomotive she is sharp. The IRM got the 4-4-0 that they always wanted and they are happy. Its too bad though because the 4-4-0 they got was a Michigan locomotive. Can't wait to see #428 running and I hope that #35 has a better future somewhere away from IRM. #99 is good where she is.
LS&I 35's future is at least assured and she is safe. Other than the foolish notion that everything must operate to be preserved, you can't ask much more. One of these days it will get a coat of paint and cosmetic work. The steam shop has more important tasks at hand; such as winterizing 1630 and giving her an annual inspection and any needed repairs, fixing the Shay, rebuilding 428's worn and tired running gear, finishing the cosmetic repairs to the 938, and work on the Steam dept. machine tools. Until all of that is completed, not much else will get done.

LS&I 35 is also considered an important display, as I recall it is the only steam locomotive in the collection with a tender booster.
Apparently I work on GEs now...

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

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The irony is that IRM supposedly acquired the B&LE 2-8-0 for the sole purpose for trading it to the Henry Ford. IRM still has 3 2-8-0s: UP 428, LS&I 35, and L&A 99[/quote]
Even though the B&LE #154 is an unusual locomotive she is sharp. The IRM got the 4-4-0 that they always wanted and they are happy. Its too bad though because the 4-4-0 they got was a Michigan locomotive. Can't wait to see #428 running and I hope that #35 has a better future somewhere away from IRM. #99 is good where she is.[/quote]

LS&I 35's future is at least assured and she is safe. Other than the foolish notion that everything must operate to be preserved, you can't ask much more. One of these days it will get a coat of paint and cosmetic work. The steam shop has more important tasks at hand; such as winterizing 1630 and giving her an annual inspection and any needed repairs, fixing the Shay, rebuilding 428's worn and tired running gear, finishing the cosmetic repairs to the 938, and work on the Steam dept. machine tools. Until all of that is completed, not much else will get done.

LS&I 35 is also considered an important display, as I recall it is the only steam locomotive in the collection with a tender booster.[/quote]
I know. Its hard for a steam fan like me to watch some of the locomotives suffer in good hands, but I know the IRM steam guys have good intentions. Some of the engines just need to show their colors, like the L&NE 0-6-0 being that she is the LAST steam locomotive from her respective railroad. She will be painted and displayed hopefully in another barn of some sort with 35 and other engines that are cosmetically lacking at this time. You know IRM will never finish building barns. :lol: Its nice to see a new locomotive in the shop getting work done on it to make it look better. 938 was starting to get BAD. She would look good pulling all the Rock Island commuter coaches that IRM has. I wonder what is next. Really 35 is the only engine with the tender booster? I see why they let go of 34 and not 35 back in the 80's.
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Re: D&M 8, HFM, & GVRR

Unread post by j32885 »

The 2 former Henry Ford Museum steamers are in Illinois:

Toledo & Detroit 16
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomo ... isplay=456
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vowners ... isplay=456
http://www.jeffstrainsite.com/railfan_p ... age32.html
http://www.jeffstrainsite.com/railfan_p ... 4-0_16.jpg
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... ?id=118646
http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi? ... ailroad=16
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0303/td16.jpg

Texas & St. Louis 18
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomo ... splay=1163
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vowners ... splay=1163
http://www.sanfilippofoundation.org/train.html
http://www.sanfilippofoundation.org/ima ... motive.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NeKD9m-g_G0/S ... G_1942.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-J0uWxV-Xpyg/T ... e%2529.JPG
http://www.buy-a-boat.com/images/SF_plaza_train.jpg

IRM's case for getting T&D 16 (DTI 16) from HFM was that "We Lack An American Type Steam Locomotive In Our Collection" So HFM got BLE 154 and IRM got T&D 16. The other steamer T&SL 18 (DTI 5) was SOLD at the HFM museum surplus auction in 1985.

Here's some recent videos of their steam locomotives inside the Henry Ford Museum:

Bessemer & Lake Erie 154 (Museum Tour), 07-27-2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcWKl-v2-0

Atlantic & Gulf 3 (Museum Tour), 07-27-2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkIBxU9h-iE

Chesapeake & Ohio 1601 (Museum Tour), 07-27-2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a21Xl_nbo9g

Enjoy! 8)

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Re: D&M 8, HFM, & GVRR

Unread post by MQT1223 »

j32885 wrote:The 2 former Henry Ford Museum steamers are in Illinois:

Toledo & Detroit 16
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomo ... isplay=456
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vowners ... isplay=456
http://www.jeffstrainsite.com/railfan_p ... age32.html
http://www.jeffstrainsite.com/railfan_p ... 4-0_16.jpg
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... ?id=118646
http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi? ... ailroad=16
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0303/td16.jpg

Texas & St. Louis 18
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomo ... splay=1163
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vowners ... splay=1163
http://www.sanfilippofoundation.org/train.html
http://www.sanfilippofoundation.org/ima ... motive.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NeKD9m-g_G0/S ... G_1942.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-J0uWxV-Xpyg/T ... e%2529.JPG
http://www.buy-a-boat.com/images/SF_plaza_train.jpg

IRM's case for getting T&D 16 (DTI 16) from HFM was that "We Lack An American Type Steam Locomotive In Our Collection" So HFM got BLE 154 and IRM got T&D 16. The other steamer T&SL 18 (DTI 5) was SOLD at the HFM museum surplus auction in 1985.

Here's some recent videos of their steam locomotives inside the Henry Ford Museum:

Bessemer & Lake Erie 154 (Museum Tour), 07-27-2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcWKl-v2-0

Atlantic & Gulf 3 (Museum Tour), 07-27-2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkIBxU9h-iE

Chesapeake & Ohio 1601 (Museum Tour), 07-27-2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a21Xl_nbo9g

Enjoy! 8)
I didn't know there was TWO...
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)

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Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by Bulby »

MQT1223 wrote:I know. Its hard for a steam fan like me to watch some of the locomotives suffer in good hands, but I know the IRM steam guys have good intentions. Some of the engines just need to show their colors, like the L&NE 0-6-0 being that she is the LAST steam locomotive from her respective railroad. She will be painted and displayed hopefully in another barn of some sort with 35 and other engines that are cosmetically lacking at this time. You know IRM will never finish building barns. :lol: Its nice to see a new locomotive in the shop getting work done on it to make it look better. 938 was starting to get BAD. She would look good pulling all the Rock Island commuter coaches that IRM has. I wonder what is next. Really 35 is the only engine with the tender booster? I see why they let go of 34 and not 35 back in the 80's.
I would strongly disagree that the 35 "suffers"; she is preserved, and is able to roll on her own wheels; better than a lot of steam engines in "good homes". At some point, she will get a coat of paint and go in a barn (or a roundhouse, maybe).

Yes, LS&I 35 is the only locomotive with a tender booster, and oral tradition indicates that is indeed the reason 34 was allowed to leave. LN&E 207 was in Barn 9 last time I went looking at what steam loco is where. It was previously restored at IRM. The day IRM stops building barns is the decade after IRM stops acquiring new pieces of equipment.

938 wasn't starting to get bad, it was bad, and if it is chosen to be restored to steam, it will need a lot of work. The running gear is worn out and needs rebuilt, plus it has been sitting in pieces since before IRM got it. The tender body needs to be completely rebuilt, if not replaced outright. This is by no means a complete list of the work needed; and I'm not a steam guy, but I can look at a tender like 938's and tell you it isn't gonna hold water no matter what you do to it. It is like swiss cheese, there isn't even enough metal to weld patches on, it is badly wasted.
Apparently I work on GEs now...

GTW Dude
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:46 pm

Re: Detroit and Mackinaw #8

Unread post by GTW Dude »

Aha time for me to revive this thread. Close to a year ago President of the now dissolved Bluewater Chapter of the NRHS John Moore mailed me original issues of the Bluewater Sentinel (Monthly Bluewater Magazine) with over 50 copies ranging from 1985 to 1991 in them have Priceless information on the likes of which you will NEVER find in a regular railroad book or online. Included in these were the railroad days issues of when the Bluewater Chapter helped host at Greenfield Villages now defunct railroad days event. Included are close to never before seen photos of GFV's steam locomotives such as freight runs, old now auctioned off equipment, and older more spiffy paint jobs on the Edison, Torch Lake, and even Detroit and Mackinac 8. if I could find a way to create Hi-res scans and put all of the Sentinel issues I have online I without a doubt would as long as it falls within the legal copyright and fair use boundaries. I'd genuinely hate to see these photo's be lost to the test of time should the originals be stored in someone's shed or basement in an old box awaiting to be opened or more than likely auctioned off to some other photo collector. (BTW I believe the Dash 8 in the photo is CR 8138 or 8438 could be either one)
Attachments
Boxcab and CR Dash 8.jpg
First run of DM 8.jpg
DM 8 operating.jpg
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCVrHPXYvNI6yOSZ1bEA7rmQ Grand Trunk Western Railroad Channel YT photographing trains since ‘09

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