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Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:55 pm
by DaveO
~z~ gave you a way of determining the count first hand via railcam yet you still want to use second hand info?
https://youtu.be/ZMSS1-aelKQ
read more, think more, post less.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:56 pm
by GTW6401
I looked at that list. For starters about 40 percent of them run up around Lake Superior in CANADA.
Other symbols are outdated that no longer run. Might even have a couple that aren't listed also.
Also, no Amtrak 358 and 359.
He is also too reliant on extras. The autorack and grain trains especially, and intermodal extras run very infrequently.
I agree with everyone who has the number around 20 per day on CN from Battle Creek over to Port Huron.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:08 pm
by ~Z~
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:09 pm
by Man o' War
This thread is driving me nuts. I know a guy who has a friend whose brother in law knows a guy who used to work for CN but knows a guy who lives nearby and he says it's easily 135 trains a day through the crick - period. So it's 135...
It's, as most of the knowledgeable posters here will tell you, around 20 trains a day - give or take a few. Over and Out.
Man o' War
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:16 pm
by CSXBOY
Thanks you for this ^ The flint sub in 24 hours sees 20 trains a day give or take between Battle Creek and Flint. Even from Flint to Tappen it only sees 12-15 trains a day due to some trains turning on the Holly sub or terminating/originating at flint like the L500/L501 and L507/L508
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:20 pm
by CSXBOY
DaveO wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 8:21 am
"Plus since 2000, CN started single tracking the line."?????
part of train count going down is CN using land barges.
I meant that CN completed the single tracking project on the Flint Sub by 2000. Many places like between CP Walton and CP Potterville became single track along with between Okemos and Bancroft as shaftsburg became a long passing siding. That was under Harrison as they were turning to bigger but fewer trains.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:19 pm
by Saturnalia
Nick, trying to inflate the train count numbers in your head does nothing to change the number of trains actually running that you can possibly see. Coming up with a higher number does nothing.
I see this all the time in this hobby. For some reason people want to inflate the counts as if it actually creates more trains or something. It is what it is, no amount of railfan accounting will change that.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:10 pm
by NickThatRailfan
Saturnalia wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:19 pm
Nick, trying to inflate the train count numbers in your head does nothing to change the number of trains actually running that you can possibly see. Coming up with a higher number does nothing.
I see this all the time in this hobby. For some reason people want to inflate the counts as if it actually creates more trains or something. It is what it is, no amount of railfan accounting will change that.
Inflate? Did you really say inflate? Im not making these train symbols up I actually looked up the train symbols and made sure they ran via Michigan and they do so I don't even know where you got I was inflating these train symbols from
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 12:30 am
by chapmaja
I went through and looked at all the train symbols listed. Unfortunately, my work took too long and I was unable to post what I found. In short, the majority of the symbols listed are 1 of a couple categories.
1) As needed trains which don't run on a regular schedule
2) Trains which may on a rare occassion have been routed via the Flint and South Bend Subs due to issues across southern Canada. It doesn't make sense to run Grain or Potash trains from Central or Western Canada to Toronto or points east via Chicago and the FLint / SB Subs.
3) Trains which the symbol listed does not exist anymore.
The majority of the other trains listed are the 24 trains listed as daily trains opperating over the subdivisions on a given day. I would say if some of the as needed trains run on a given day and you included the locals and Amtraks you might, and I mean might, get to 40 trains running on the Flint and South Bend Subdivisions in a given day.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 1:01 am
by NickThatRailfan
chapmaja wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 12:30 am
I went through and looked at all the train symbols listed. Unfortunately, my work took too long and I was unable to post what I found. In short, the majority of the symbols listed are 1 of a couple categories.
1) As needed trains which don't run on a regular schedule
2) Trains which may on a rare occassion have been routed via the Flint and South Bend Subs due to issues across southern Canada. It doesn't make sense to run Grain or Potash trains from Central or Western Canada to Toronto or points east via Chicago and the FLint / SB Subs.
3) Trains which the symbol listed does not exist anymore.
The majority of the other trains listed are the 24 trains listed as daily trains opperating over the subdivisions on a given day. I would say if some of the as needed trains run on a given day and you included the locals and Amtraks you might, and I mean might, get to 40 trains running on the Flint and South Bend Subdivisions in a given day.
See now thats reasonable
Vicksburg, Vs Bellevue
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 1:44 pm
by NickThatRailfan
So on Saturday me and my buddy are going out on the CN where would we see the most trains in 6 hours Vicksburg or Bellevue? Or in the middle in BC where the Amtrak Michigan Line feeds off onto the CN?
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:56 pm
by CR900945
As far as 2 railroad lines in Battle Creek: Other than CN, there is the former NS line now owned by MDOT. Amtrak operates and dispatches it. NS has trackage rights over MDOT from Town Line in Dearborn to BO Tower in Kalamazoo for freight service. West of Wayne, there is little NS traffic which would impact any train count along CN through Battle Creek.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:16 pm
by GTWTD3
Even in the hey day of the Flint Sub in the late 90s early 2000's, the best you can do in Durand is 40ish, if I remember correctly the highest I ever got in my numerous 24 hour counts was in the mid 40's. 50 is unusual, anything above that is ridiculous. TSBY, HESR. Battle Creek would be maybe 5 or 10 more when you take out the TSBY, HESR and replace it with Conrail and Amtrak. TOday's counts are in the mid 20's in the Durand area, Battle Creek would be the same because there's no Conrail. Your including as needed unit trains in your count, they don't run every day.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:31 pm
by NS3322
CR900945 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:56 pm
As far as 2 railroad lines in Battle Creek: Other than CN, there is the former NS line now owned by MDOT. Amtrak operates and dispatches it. NS has trackage rights over MDOT from Town Line in Dearborn to BO Tower in Kalamazoo for freight service. West of Wayne, there is little NS traffic which would impact any train count along CN through Battle Creek.
You would only see B57 going by the Amtrak station in BC. And it would be after 1800.
Current NS Michigan Line Train Symbols
B05 - Burns Harbor to Decatur/Lawton Local
B22 - Jackson to Albion Local
B25 - Jackson to Wayne Road Train (serves Jiffy in Chelsea)
B33 - Jackson to Battle Creek (Hinman) Road Train (ran to Kzoo to interchange with GDLK until 2020)
B44 - Jackson Local
B57 - Battle Creek/Augusta Local (serves Kzoo if needed, which since 2020 has been rare)
B2T - Jackson to Wayne Saturday Extra
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:12 pm
by chapmaja
NS3322 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:31 pm
CR900945 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:56 pm
As far as 2 railroad lines in Battle Creek: Other than CN, there is the former NS line now owned by MDOT. Amtrak operates and dispatches it. NS has trackage rights over MDOT from Town Line in Dearborn to BO Tower in Kalamazoo for freight service. West of Wayne, there is little NS traffic which would impact any train count along CN through Battle Creek.
You would only see B57 going by the Amtrak station in BC. And it would be after 1800.
Current NS Michigan Line Train Symbols
B05 - Burns Harbor to Decatur/Lawton Local
B22 - Jackson to Albion Local
B25 - Jackson to Wayne Road Train (serves Jiffy in Chelsea)
B33 - Jackson to Battle Creek (Hinman) Road Train (ran to Kzoo to interchange with GDLK until 2020)
B44 - Jackson Local
B57 - Battle Creek/Augusta Local (serves Kzoo if needed, which since 2020 has been rare)
B2T - Jackson to Wayne Saturday Extra
So all traffic from West of Jackson is now going to Jackson and then going on B25 to Wayne now? Nothing goes to K'zoo for Grand Elk to take to Elkhart correct?
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:09 pm
by SD80MAC
I was in East Lansing from 11 am until 5 pm today, and during that time CN ran a total of 6 trains. 6.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:41 pm
by NS3322
chapmaja wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:12 pm
So all traffic from West of Jackson is now going to Jackson and then going on B25 to Wayne now? Nothing goes to K'zoo for Grand Elk to take to Elkhart correct?
Yes, has been that way since early 2020.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:04 am
by Saturnalia
SD80MAC wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:09 pm
I was in East Lansing from 11 am until 5 pm today, and during that time CN ran a total of 6 trains. 6.
Perfect for a 24 hour average of about 24 trains. Sounds reasonable given all that has been stated here.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:06 am
by Saturnalia
NickThatRailfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:10 pm
Saturnalia wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:19 pm
Nick, trying to inflate the train count numbers in your head does nothing to change the number of trains actually running that you can possibly see. Coming up with a higher number does nothing.
I see this all the time in this hobby. For some reason people want to inflate the counts as if it actually creates more trains or something. It is what it is, no amount of railfan accounting will change that.
Inflate? Did you really say inflate? Im not making these train symbols up I actually looked up the train symbols and made sure they ran via Michigan and they do so I don't even know where you got I was inflating these train symbols from
Yes...your method was flawed, as has been pointed out multiple times, which is vastly overcounting.
You should average about one per hour on the line in question. Some may come in clusters. Sometimes you might sit for 10 hours and get 2 trains. Luck of the draw.
Re: CN South Bend/Flint Sub
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:23 am
by DaveO
for the halibut, recent official CN official filing has approximately 17 trains per day through the tunnel.
remember some go via mt. clemens.
https://downloads.regulations.gov/FRA-2 ... ment_1.pdf