CSX on the west side of Michigan

[pudgy]

Why is Ensel considered a no fly zone. My guess is proximity to the airport in Lansing. For West Olive I would guess it is considered as "critical infrastructure". Am I correct?

Lansing has the airport and a couple other high security restrictions for the National Guard post across the street and some other activity in the area.

Consumers is critical infrastructure, so protected under Homeland security rules.

Allegedly...

[SD80MAC]

Ensel is off limits due to Nexeo Chemical being right next door, in addition to the airport and Guard base.

[PatAzo]

Where are these restrictions published? They do not show on the FAA's map of Restricted Security Sensitive Airspace. There is controlled air space around the Lansing airport.

[chapmaja]

Where are these restrictions published? They do not show on the FAA's map of Restricted Security Sensitive Airspace. There is controlled air space around the Lansing airport.

Looking at the FAA's UAS Data Map it would appear the hieght restriction is 100 feet for Unmanned Aircrast Systems. This isn't to say other restrictions are not in place which don't show on the FAA website, but from an airport standpoint, the restriction of Ensel is 100 feet for that entire block.

https://faa.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webapp ... f6a06754ad

When I go to do a search on homeland security's website, it refers back to the above cited map.

[kd_1014]

Is CSX Wyoming Yard restricted airspace?

[JBaxter]

Interesting note after checking that map from chapmaja. The siding coming out of the CSX Wyoming Yard and servicing Michigan Natural Storage on Judd St. is owned by NS. Even though it hasn't been connected to NS track since before I can remember.

[kd_1014]

Interesting note after checking that map from chapmaja. The siding coming out of the CSX Wyoming Yard and servicing Michigan Natural Storage on Judd St. is owned by NS. Even though it hasn't been connected to NS track since before I can remember.

I believe it was built by either the PRR or NYC back in the day as a “back door” track connecting C&O with the PRR/NYC. Probably just fell onto NS ownership with the mergers and acquisitions over the years.

[PatAzo]

Is CSX Wyoming Yard restricted airspace?

At the FAA web page "where can I fly" https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/where_can_i_fly Click "Air Space Restrictions" They include stadiums and sporting events, near airports, security sensitive air space restrictions, restricted or special use air space, and Washington DC.

Security Sensitive Airspace Restrictions https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started ... _sensitive include:

Military bases designated as Department of Defense facilities

National landmarks – Statue of Liberty, Hoover Dam, Mt. Rushmore

Certain critical infrastructure, such as nuclear power plants

What then is a "Certain critical infrastructure" This page includes a link to the same map chapmaja provided a link to. It shows airport controlled space, tons of restricted space in the east and a restriction at the Soo Locks. It does not show Wyoming Yard as having a restriction. Nuclear plants don't show but they are already listed as restricted.

Go to The Department of Homeland Security "Unmanned Aircraft Systems FAQ" The link "How to find out where it is acceptable to fly..." takes you to the same map. [url]ttps://www.cisa.gov/topics/physical-security/u ... ystems/faq[/url]

The FAA has an app "B4UFLY" that takes you to a similar map that will use your GPS location to show if there are restrictions where you are.

[CSXT8390]

All of the locations posted are good ones.

But just a quick FYI - we (train crews) have been told multiple times to report drones flying near the tracks. They are a security concern, so I wouldn't fly close enough for us to see them. Some crews care more than others, but the chance of getting reported is there. Also - NEVER fly a drone into or above any of the CSX yards, especially Ensel yard in Lansing, or anywhere near Consumers Energy in West Olive. You will 100% get reported in those areas to CSX Police and/or local authorities as those are listed as FAA No Fly Zones. The only drones authorized to fly on CSX property are the drones used by management to monitor crews and trains and even they can't fly at Lansing or Consumers because of federal restricted air space laws.

Just wondering, but I think I know the answers.

Why is Ensel considered a now fly zone. My guess is proximity to the airport in Lansing. For West Olive I would guess it is considered as "critical infrastructure". Am I correct?

Ensel is a no fly due to the proximity to the airport, guard HQ, and some defense contractors in the area. West Olive is considered “critical infrastructure.”

The CSX yards are private property and the Railroad considers it trespassing. You may be able to fly from off the property, but if they catch you, you will likely be reported to either CSX Police or local authorities due to security concerns for the hazardous materials and other safety sensitive things that may be (or may not be) stored in the yard.

[Standard Railfan]

Interesting note after checking that map from chapmaja. The siding coming out of the CSX Wyoming Yard and servicing Michigan Natural Storage on Judd St. is owned by NS. Even though it hasn't been connected to NS track since before I can remember.

I believe it was built by either the PRR or NYC back in the day as a “back door” track connecting C&O with the PRR/NYC. Probably just fell onto NS ownership with the mergers and acquisitions over the years.

The siding in question was built by the PRR (GR&I) in 1890 to reach the plaster mill and gypsum mine that is now Michigan Natural Storage. The branch connected with the Plaster Mill track that ran through the southwest part of GR and parallel to Godfrey St.

[PatAzo]

The CSX yards are private property and the Railroad considers it trespassing.

While some drone websites say you can fly over private property, attorneys are more cautious. The legislative acts do not speak to simple trespassing. It appears the courts are differentiating between manned aircraft which can fly over and drones carrying cameras.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/drone ... n-5807177/

Interesting topic.

[chapmaja]

The CSX yards are private property and the Railroad considers it trespassing.

While some drone websites say you can fly over private property, attorneys are more cautious. The legislative acts do not speak to simple trespassing. It appears the courts are differentiating between manned aircraft which can fly over and drones carrying cameras.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/drone ... n-5807177/

Interesting topic.

This is where it does get interesting, because the FAA, and some courts have basically ruled that the airspace from the ground up is all navigable airspace and as such is open to the public.

I have not heard an update on the case mentioned, but I think this is a case type the United States Supreme Court will eventually will eventually have to weigh in on.

I am somewhat torn on this topic because I think there do need to be some restrictions on what people can video from UAS/UAV's, at the same time there is a lot which can be viewed from public property that is simply viewed from a different perspective using a UAV/UAS.

This also gets into a state vs federal control issue. The FAA basically states that because UAV's and UAS's are aircraft, the fall under the juristriction of the FAA and solely the FAA and since they are aircraft, the airspace from the ground up is in fact navigable airspace avialable for aircraft to fly in.

Unfortunately this is also an area in which the legislatures of the states and the United States have also not kept up with the times by actually dealing with this issue, leaving the decision making to a court system which at times has decided to intepret the laws in a manner drastically different than what the creators of the law has designed.

[Doktor No]

The Michigan Natural Storage/tracks back to the city market and Columbian Storage and Transfer were sold/transferred to CSX back in about 2000ish. The bridge just east of MNS was in need of repairs, NS didn't want to do it due to the fact they have no customers to service back there anymore, CSX does it....they did an agreement or even a downright sale of the property. It is no longer NS property.
I read the paperwork about it some time ago as I was employed at Wyoming Yard with CSX. Fun times....eh? Serviced the city market back then with cars full of potatoes from Idaho. They seemed to arrive before all the major holidays for some reason.... No produce dealers are served any longer. Lots of disconnected track still back there though. Was a big deal well into the 60's and 70's.

[chapmaja]

I'm trying to picture which tracks we are talking about. Are these the tracks that exited the CSX yard next to Judd St, goes by the Michigan Natural Storage and back to Columbian Logistics?

I never would have thought this would have been NS trackage. I know the track at one time crossed the Grand River on the bridge that is now the trail. I always thought this went west along the river towards the mines that were west of town. I didn't realize this track actually angles towards Padnos. Am I safe in assuming the line actually turned north northeast and went alongside what is now Padnos property and up through the west side of Grand Rapids?

There was another line that run along Seward, then crossed at Lexington and Butterworth before heading WSW. Was this the line that headed west towards this mine?

[Andy24]

I'm trying to picture which tracks we are talking about. Are these the tracks that exited the CSX yard next to Judd St, goes by the Michigan Natural Storage and back to Columbian Logistics?

I caught Y197 switching boxcars at City Market Lead off Godfrey Ave at the Colombian Logistics warehouse once so far and probably the same tracks that runs off the main at Wyoming Yard by Judd St to the Columbian

[J T]

The FAA has an app "B4UFLY" that takes you to a similar map that will use your GPS location to show if there are restrictions where you are.

Hmmm…

[J T]

I'm trying to picture which tracks we are talking about. Are these the tracks that exited the CSX yard next to Judd St, goes by the Michigan Natural Storage and back to Columbian Logistics?

I never would have thought this would have been NS trackage. I know the track at one time crossed the Grand River on the bridge that is now the trail. I always thought this went west along the river towards the mines that were west of town. I didn't realize this track actually angles towards Padnos. Am I safe in assuming the line actually turned north northeast and went alongside what is now Padnos property and up through the west side of Grand Rapids?

The line that went over the Grand River crossed Wyoming yard at the west end, no where near the spur by Judd.

[chapmaja]

I'm trying to picture which tracks we are talking about. Are these the tracks that exited the CSX yard next to Judd St, goes by the Michigan Natural Storage and back to Columbian Logistics?

I never would have thought this would have been NS trackage. I know the track at one time crossed the Grand River on the bridge that is now the trail. I always thought this went west along the river towards the mines that were west of town. I didn't realize this track actually angles towards Padnos. Am I safe in assuming the line actually turned north northeast and went alongside what is now Padnos property and up through the west side of Grand Rapids?

The line that went over the Grand River crossed Wyoming yard at the west end, no where near the spur by Judd.

It appears there are two sets of tracks that came across the Grand River from the north. One is the bridge that crosses the Grand River, Market St and the CSX tracks just west of Godfrey. This used to be a railroad line which which appears to have headed north into approximately the location of Padnos before connecting with the lines heading north through the west side of town. This is an extension of the line which exits the CSX line near Judd St and serves the above mentioned customers.

The second line, which you reference, was the line that crossed what is now the Kent Trails Grand River Bridge. This line, as I understand it, was the LS&MS, but never made it to Conrail, let alone NS ownership. Per this map listed below, the line you mention didn't even make it to the drawing of this map in the late 1960's, as it is labled as abandoned. This line was however the line at one time did go to the mine, but it was different than the 1 mentioned. This line also passed what it now Padnos, but did so slightly further to the west.

Looking at a 1967-1969 Grand Rapids Map, I see a line which ran, listed as Penn Central, which ran from a connection just south of Burton St with what is currently the Grand Elk, and headed north north west. This line eventually went to a location just west of Godfrey and Liberty St, then went north, crossing the Grand River (and CSX tracks / Market St) before heading next to Padnos and then going north through the conglomeration that was the west side trackage before consolidation. For a train coming southbound on this line, near the Godrey and Liberty area mentioned above, there was a switch. The line going to the south (left) was the line towards Burton St US131 Grand Elk current mainline. A train going to the right on this switch would have head west to the now CSX Wyoming Terminal, passing the above mentioned locations and entering the yard next to Judd St.

[chapmaja]

The Michigan Natural Storage/tracks back to the city market and Columbian Storage and Transfer were sold/transferred to CSX back in about 2000ish. The bridge just east of MNS was in need of repairs, NS didn't want to do it due to the fact they have no customers to service back there anymore, CSX does it....they did an agreement or even a downright sale of the property. It is no longer NS property.
I read the paperwork about it some time ago as I was employed at Wyoming Yard with CSX. Fun times....eh? Serviced the city market back then with cars full of potatoes from Idaho. They seemed to arrive before all the major holidays for some reason.... No produce dealers are served any longer. Lots of disconnected track still back there though. Was a big deal well into the 60's and 70's.

Did NS still service some customers on the section further to the north that eventually crossed the river (mentioned in my other post). These would have been the customers located along Godrey correct? Wasn't one of them something like Grand Rapids Brass Works or something like that. Would those have been NS customers?

[SD80MAC]

The bridge over CSX and the river just west of Godfrey was the interurban. After they went bankrupt in the 30s, that part of the line went to NYC. Doktor No could tell you how long it lasted, but I’m pretty sure the bridge was abandoned by the 80s.

Conrail had some customers down in the “Godfrey Corridor” into the early 80s, accessed by their switch which came off the CSX main right at Godfrey. Conrail’s track along Godfrey was originally PRR and NYC trackage. It was definitely a maze down in there at one time, with PM, PRR, and NYC all serving that corridor. NYC accessed the Godfrey area via their own line which came across from what is now the south end of Grand Elk’s Hughart yard, which went northwest over Burton, Clyde Park, Chicago Dr and Godfrey (still very plainly visible on any satellite or aerial view of the area).

As others have said, what is today CSX’s City Market Spur (the one that comes off at Judd St and services Michigan Natural Storage and Columbian Warehouse) was originally PRR’s back door into Wyoming Yard. There have been no PRR/CR/NS customers down there since the early 80s when the big track consolidation and rationalization in GR took place. CSX continued to serve what customers they had down while utilizing track that was in fact owned by CR and later NS, and neither party realized it until it came time to fix the bridge.