CSX Signal Question

Anything pertaining to railfanning in Michigan.
chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

CSX Signal Question

Unread post by chapmaja »

I was in Howell today for a medical procedure. On the way to the hospital we crossed the Michigan Ave crossing and I noticed the signal at the west end of Howell siding showed Red over Red over Yellow. A few minute later I heard a horn on the CSX tracks, sounding like it was near the TS facility.

What does a Red over Red over Yellow signal indicate. I assume the indication allows a train to travel at restricted speed up to the end of the block. Am I correct?

User avatar
David Collins
Youtube Railfan Guru
Posts: 2678
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:46 am
Location: Bloomfield Hills, Mi
Contact:

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by David Collins »

That should be a slow approach. 10 mph past the signal then stop at the next signal ahead.
Ferris State University’s Train Guy

Youtube: Michigan Railfan Films

Flickr: David R. Collins

SC: daveeed1k

Andy24
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 2155
Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 7:01 pm
Location: West Michigan
Contact:

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by Andy24 »

Attachments
IMG_0157.jpeg
Average railfan reporter on Grand Rapids Sub, Plymouth Sub, and Area Short Lines Railroads.

Follow my channel for more: https://www.youtube.com/@ATARP24

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by chapmaja »

:D
Andy24 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:19 pm
Full Signals link: https://signals.jovet.net/rules/CSX%20S ... 0Rules.pdf
Thank you

User avatar
pudgy
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:11 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by pudgy »

chapmaja wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:39 pm
I was in Howell today for a medical procedure. On the way to the hospital we crossed the Michigan Ave crossing and I noticed the signal at the west end of Howell siding showed Red over Red over Yellow. A few minute later I heard a horn on the CSX tracks, sounding like it was near the TS facility.

What does a Red over Red over Yellow signal indicate. I assume the indication allows a train to travel at restricted speed up to the end of the block. Am I correct?
What you describe in that territory is indeed a slow approach, however having knowledge of the area, is not a signal that displays there. The typical signal breakdown for Howell is as follows:

Green/Red - Clear, have a signal down the main and a signal at Ann Pere diamond
Yellow/Red - Approach, have signal down the main with no signal at Ann Pere diamond.
Red/Yellow/Yellow - Medium Approach, signal into the siding at Howell
Red/Red - Stop.

Have never seen any other signal indication at that location, so wondering if you saw a Red/Yellow/Yellow for L305 to enter the siding to drop off GLC interchange cars.
Big Easy

User avatar
amessmann
Signal Maintainer
Posts: 1437
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:58 pm
Location: East Lansing, MI

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by amessmann »

I have seen both a R/R/Y and a R/Y/Y displayed at EE Brighton, I could've sworn the same at Howell however I am usually not on that side of the signal.

I was going to suggest it depends on the occupancy but I don't see a correlation, L305 gets a R/R/Y into the siding at EE Brighton when they run around, and L302 has gotten a R/Y/Y when entering for a meet.

That being said, I see no correlation with their linement either, with L305 being allowed thru the WE but L302 not (until L303 clears). I am not sure if the dispatcher can queue movements but that might help explain it.

If both aspects are shown, I would have pictures of it, but I haven't the time to dig out those photos right now.

User avatar
justalurker66
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1962
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by justalurker66 »

amessmann wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:23 pm
I have seen both a R/R/Y and a R/Y/Y displayed at EE Brighton, I could've sworn the same at Howell however I am usually not on that side of the signal.

I was going to suggest it depends on the occupancy but I don't see a correlation, L305 gets a R/R/Y into the siding at EE Brighton when they run around, and L302 has gotten a R/Y/Y when entering for a meet.
Once the dispatcher clears a route through an interlocking the signal displayed depends on occupancy and the next signal.

R-R-Y is Restricting ... the train is allowed to pass through prepared to stop before any obstruction. Generally that means that there is occupancy on the track where the train is routed. But trains can also receive "restricting" when entering a track that is not signaled or is not set up to detect occupancy. (Occupancy is the default if the track is not detected to be not occupied. Not all sidings detect occupancy. If there is a manual switch on the siding that is open that would also register as occupancy.)

R-Y-Y is Medium Approach ... pass through the interlocking at medium speed into an unoccupied track then proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. You would see this if the track being entered is not occupied and the next signal is stop or restricting.

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by chapmaja »

pudgy wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:44 am
chapmaja wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:39 pm
I was in Howell today for a medical procedure. On the way to the hospital we crossed the Michigan Ave crossing and I noticed the signal at the west end of Howell siding showed Red over Red over Yellow. A few minute later I heard a horn on the CSX tracks, sounding like it was near the TS facility.

What does a Red over Red over Yellow signal indicate. I assume the indication allows a train to travel at restricted speed up to the end of the block. Am I correct?
What you describe in that territory is indeed a slow approach, however having knowledge of the area, is not a signal that displays there. The typical signal breakdown for Howell is as follows:

Green/Red - Clear, have a signal down the main and a signal at Ann Pere diamond
Yellow/Red - Approach, have signal down the main with no signal at Ann Pere diamond.
Red/Yellow/Yellow - Medium Approach, signal into the siding at Howell
Red/Red - Stop.

Have never seen any other signal indication at that location, so wondering if you saw a Red/Yellow/Yellow for L305 to enter the siding to drop off GLC interchange cars.
It was very clearly a RED/RED/YELLOW.

User avatar
Doktor No
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1075
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:49 pm
Location: Rockford, Michigan

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by Doktor No »

One question, new CSX or old Chessie signals? C&O/Chessie, per the rule book doesn't show a RRA signal indication. Not saying it doesn't exist. Red yellow red is slow approach.
Curb Your Enthusiasm.

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by chapmaja »

Pretty sure it was older signals. Don't recall any signal updates done around Howell.

User avatar
pudgy
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:11 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by pudgy »

Doktor No wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:15 pm
One question, new CSX or old Chessie signals? C&O/Chessie, per the rule book doesn't show a RRA signal indication. Not saying it doesn't exist. Red yellow red is slow approach.
R/Y/R is now medium approach in standard signals. R/Y would be restricting in Chessie signal rules, but I believe only Lansing has updated signals that offer restricting as a signal. Everything east of Lansing requires "permission to pass red/talk bys" as the signal logic doesn't exist in those installations.

Beck Rd EAS, CH 51, the WB CH 59, MA, North Lansing, #2 WAS and EAS Ensel, Airport (CH 92) are the only signals that have been updated in recent years to Safetran installations.
Last edited by pudgy on Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Big Easy

Chip
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 607
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: Brownstown, Michigan

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by Chip »

Let me ask this because I see it a lot in New Boston. What does G/R/R mean? About half the time when I drive by one track will be G/R/R and the other will be R/R/R.

User avatar
pudgy
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:11 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by pudgy »

Chip wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:02 pm
Let me ask this because I see it a lot in New Boston. What does G/R/R mean? About half the time when I drive by one track will be G/R/R and the other will be R/R/R.
That would be a "Clear" signal. Best aspect you can see.
Big Easy

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by chapmaja »

What if the locomotives were lined into the siding to pick up cars dropped from the GLC in the siding. What indication would be shown?

User avatar
pudgy
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:11 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by pudgy »

chapmaja wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:31 pm
What if the locomotives were lined into the siding to pick up cars dropped from the GLC in the siding. What indication would be shown?
Can't get a signal into the occupied sidings between Lansing and Plymouth. Have to get permission from dispatcher to pass the red signal after they have lined the switch.
Big Easy

BnOEngr
Captain Obvious
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:41 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by BnOEngr »

R/Y/Y on C&O signals is Medium Approach
R/Y/R on CSX Standard signals is Medium Approach
R/Y/R on C&O signals is Slow Approach
R/R/Y on CSX Standard signals is Slow Approach
R/Y on C&O signals is Restricting
Last edited by BnOEngr on Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

CSXT8390
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:11 pm
Location: CG 1

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by CSXT8390 »

Provided you saw the signal correctly:
R-R-Y in Chessie signals is a Slow Approach. Rule number is C1288(b) - but only on single light triple stack high masts.
R-Y or R-Y-(dark) is Restricting. Rule number is C1290. There are some lunar ones as well, but I haven’t seen one on the Plymouth Sub yet.
IMG_1318.jpeg
I won’t even speculate on why that would’ve / could’ve been displayed there as I don’t work any of the locals on the Plymouth sub. I just run thru freight or grain trains on that line.
My opinions and statements are my own personal views and do not represent those of my employer or any other employee associated with my employer unless specifically stated as such.

BnOEngr
Captain Obvious
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:41 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by BnOEngr »

What you have to understand about these signal charts, is that the square head aspects are the "Seaboard" or CSX Standard aspects. The oval head aspects are the C&O aspects. While not shown here, the Conrail aspects are depicted by round head aspects.
That should be a slow approach. 10 mph past the signal then stop at the next signal ahead.
Indication of Slow Approach is "Slow speed through turnouts, crossovers, sidings and over power-operated switches, then proceed prepared to stop at next signal". Slow Speed is "A speed not exceeding 15 MPH"
Last edited by BnOEngr on Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

CSXT8390
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:11 pm
Location: CG 1

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by CSXT8390 »

BnOEngr wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:47 am
What you have to understand about these signal charts, is that the square head aspects are the "Seaboard" or CSX Standard aspects. The oval head aspects are the C&O aspects. While not shown here, the Conrail aspects are depicted by round head aspects.
That should be a slow approach. 10 mph past the signal then stop at the next signal ahead.
Indication of Slow Approach is "Slow speed through turnouts, crossovers, sidings and over power-operated switches, then proceed prepared to stop at next signal". Slow Speed is "A speed not exceeding 15 MPH"
My signal chart is ripped right out of our rule book and the sign entering the signal rules specifically calls out the rule numbers. You can see the same / similar sign going the opposite direction near the Plymouth Diamond on the line that runs to GR.

Slow speed is defined as 15 MPH for all intents and purposes. The reason a slow or medium approach is never 15 (or 30) MPH is because most sidings are 10 MPH in this area (some notable exceptions include Trowbridge, Hudsonville, the old Holland Pass… you get the idea) so you can’t go faster than the slowest authorized speed.
My opinions and statements are my own personal views and do not represent those of my employer or any other employee associated with my employer unless specifically stated as such.

BnOEngr
Captain Obvious
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:41 am

Re: CSX Signal Question

Unread post by BnOEngr »

CSXT8390 wrote:My signal chart is ripped right out of our rule book and the sign entering the signal rules specifically calls out the rule numbers. You can see the same / similar sign going the opposite direction near the Plymouth Diamond on the line that runs to GR.
What is the difference then between 1288(a) and C1288(b)? They're both R/R/Y.
What is the difference then between 1286(a) and C1288(a)? They're both R/Y/R.
What is the difference then between 1286(b) and C1290(b)? They're both R/Y.

That is why I described the different denotations in the signal aspects shown in the charts, because the average non-CSX-employee fan could easily get confused.

Post Reply