Why Not Have Signals on the Mt. Clemens Sub

[bnsfben]

I know the Mt. Clemens sub does not have a ton of traffic, but why does CN not put signals in? It seems like the air waves are always taken by the dispatcher giving and releasing track authorities. Wouldn't it make things much easier for the dispatcher and crew to have signals? Today, there is a southbound at Haven and it has to work with the GTW 4917 and a foreman. So, it is not like there is nothing going on... although there is nothing going on sometiems.

[Brian_F]

The Mt. Clemens sub is signaled at the end of double track at
Nolan (8 Mile) and is CTC from 25 Mile to 31 Mile which covers
Haven siding and it's approaches. It really has all the signaling
it could need for it's current traffic.

[bnsfben]

The Mt. Clemens sub is signaled at the end of double track at
Nolan (8 Mile) and is CTC from 25 Mile to 31 Mile which covers
Haven siding and it's approaches. It really has all the signaling
it could need for it's current traffic.

Oh, well I did not know that. Thank you for informing me about that!

[sd70accsxt700]

That is why you hear "CTC Haven" or "CTC Nolan" when he gives out track warrents.

[GTW6401]

Its single track from Detroit to Tappan except for the area around New Haven. Often you were hear the dispatcher give southbounds at Haven an after order for when the opposing train clears.

[CERY]

Signals are over rated when you have low traffic volumes. Track warrants work just fine.

[Typhoon]

Wouldn't it make things much easier for the dispatcher and crew to have signals? .

Easier? Sure. Worth the cost, that is a whole different conversation.......

[canpac08]

I know signals are nice but dark territory and radio blocking are not bad in fact with GPS radio blocking means you can space trains closer together and move more freight minus the cost of all the signal systems.

[MSchwiebert]

What will be interesting is seeing what kind of technology is developed that will allow lines without signals to comply with PTC requirements. Everything I've seen mentioned so far is for an overlay on existing signal systems, but what about the lines that have no signaling system to overlay?

[canpac08]

one of the main ways to get PTS to work in non signaled territory is through a form of GPS/TWA. most of the rules that would apply for this are in GCOR. All thats needed would be minor changes as to how to do track warrants. most likely set up through gps Coordinates, and predetermined "blocks" station signs or other land marks work great.

[MSchwiebert]

Interesting, I thought that one of the hurdles of using GPS is that the "civillian" version was not accurate enough to differentiate between tracks in double track territory (granted, an unsignaled double track line would be kind of a paradox, but same would go for passing sidings etc.)? Unless the railroads are going to get the more accurate military version?

[AARR]

With all due respect guys I've been across just about every road along the Mt. Clemens Sub and most of them have signals...



The major roads have gates too.

[canpac08]

I would say they will prolly use the military grade GPS. But I figure they can work all the bugs out of the GPS when it comes time to write a program for each subdivision. Thats what will be the most labor intensive part of PTC. But it is coming, and will evolve to one man crews. That what really scares me. But of course I don't completely trust the whole computer aspect of moving freight.

[Robertrains]

One man crews sure are scary! Man that would be lonely without a fellow crew member! Who would help if there was a problem? The computer would control everything!
(like HAL 9000 from "2001 a Space Odyssey")
Sure, it will take many years before this happens but we can't stop tech progress!

Now the days of cabooses on manifest trains sound like ancient history! Those longer trains stopped using cabooses on Mt. Clemens sub at the beginning of 1991! I'm so glad to have railfanned in the caboose era as a kid. I'm also glad to have pix of them before they were done! At least the local kept using a caboose for years!

Once in a while, you can spot cab #79197 on GTW lines in the area! I'm just rambling on about cabooses but those are my 2nd favorite thing after engines! (I presume most railfans agree)

Has anyone heard more about this? We need to boycott 1-man crews when the time is right!

Robert Jackson

[canpac08]

CSX has already figured out how to perfect one man crews once the unions and government get on board.I've heard from a coworker who used to work at CSX that in the main frame for pool and job assignment one selection is for special U-men. these guys would be position along the ROW say ever 20-50 miles apart work 8 hours and help be there to assist the computer er engineer. I know this sounds like a crazy rumor and I hope its only that but the future is upon us sooner then we think.

[hoborich]

When I was in New Haven a couple weeks ago, 383 was in the siding, waiting on 382 and 384 to come north. The dispatcher told 383, that 384 was right on the heels of 382. #382 kept calling out mileposts, and giving their position, and saying "tell 384 they are good to xxx milepost. Apparently that works in place of signals, if you are on single track, and you know where the train ahead of you is.

[canpac08]

yeah calling out mile posts works. as long as all parties involved know where all mile posts are (since railroad miles are not always a mile apart), and that all crews are familiar with there territory harder to do when you can only see say 50 feet in front of your locomotive due to fog or a white out.
I know on the CP out west they use land marks that all crews and dispatchers know of for track warrant and train locations I.E. the big rock. As it has been said before Signals make things easier

[saxman]

The the rules for Track Authority Territory are very clear as to what can be used as identifiable locations for limits. These include mileposts as stated, defect detectors, station signs and siding switches. It matters not that the mile posts are exactly 5,280 feet apart on the railroad. (Yes some miles are longer than others.) If the Track Authority states; do not pass milepost X, one doesn't do it regardless of weather or other conditions. It's called knowing the physical characteristics of the subdivision. In saying that out west on the CP they use points everybody knows like "the big rock", I pasue and say: "How many "big rocks' are their in the mountains? Why is the "big rock" easier to see that maybe 200 feet away then a milepost that's twenty feet away in fog or snow?

Signal Territory is not automatically safer then Track Authority Territory. Both still require the major flaw in either territory to respond correctly........THE HUMANS! Hey, believe it or not, trains have and do run into each other in signal territory.

Bottom line, Track Authority works on the Mt. Clemens Sub. The costs incured by delays versus costs of a signal sytem still favor Track Authority. Yes at times somebody is waiting at Tappan, Haven or Nolan. The biggest hang up is not the Track Authorities but Port Huron itself. It can only take so many trains at a time. Remember the Mt. Clemens Sub is not the only place trains arrive from at Port Huron.

Oh by the way, Nolan is not a CTC control point.

[MSchwiebert]

Which brings us back to PTC - which would override the crew actions if a signal is misread (or in TWC/DTC territory if an authority limit is passed). http://www.fra.dot.gov/Pages/1265.shtml gives a good overview of the intent and the various systems out there. Frankly I was quite surprised at how many different systems are being tested, obviously some are for rather unique operating situations (Alaska RR & Amtrak) yet "interoperability" has been identified as a goal, so one would think that compatibility between the freight systems at least will be forthcoming. Also of interest is the goal of having PTC in "widespread operation" by December 2015. I wonder what measurements are going to be used to see if that goal is met (% of route miles, % of train starts or some other measurement)? Finally it's good to see that one of the pilot operations is on the Ohio Central, because what do the shortlines/regionals do to comply? Will an affordable system be developed to meet both the needs of a shortline that has a limited number of movements and will it be affordable for them?

The the rules for Track Authority Territory are very clear as to what can be used as identifiable locations for limits. These include mileposts as stated, defect detectors, station signs and siding switches. It matters not that the mile posts are exactly 5,280 feet apart on the railroad. (Yes some miles are longer than others.) If the Track Authority states; do not pass milepost X, one doesn't do it regardless of weather or other conditions. It's called knowing the physical characteristics of the subdivision. In saying that out west on the CP they use points everybody knows like "the big rock", I pasue and say: "How many "big rocks' are their in the mountains? Why is the "big rock" easier to see that maybe 200 feet away then a milepost that's twenty feet away in fog or snow?

Signal Territory is not automatically safer then Track Authority Territory. Both still require the major flaw in either territory to respond correctly........THE HUMANS! Hey, believe it or not, trains have and do run into each other in signal territory.

Bottom line, Track Authority works on the Mt. Clemens Sub. The costs incured by delays versus costs of a signal sytem still favor Track Authority. Yes at times somebody is waiting at Tappan, Haven or Nolan. The biggest hang up is not the Track Authorities but Port Huron itself. It can only take so many trains at a time. Remember the Mt. Clemens Sub is not the only place trains arrive from at Port Huron.

Oh by the way, Nolan is not a CTC control point.

[saxman]

PTC is a very ambitious goal. As I see it, it will have a greater effect in rationalizing the US rail system then the formation of Conrail. Each railroad will have to look carefully at which lines are wotrh the investment. Does CN keep both the Holly and the Mt. Clemens Sub. to install PTC? I also believe, railroads will look at consolidating rail lines between railroads. An example of this is the NS Detroit Line and the CN Shoreline Sub. Between FN and Toledo. In fact, a joint corridor from FN to Forest Lawn could become a reality.

I too am surprised with the number of systems being tested. In order to work, and on a wide spread basis, the fewer systems the better. It obviously has to be a system that works in the desert southwest and in the northern tier states. Also PTC has to be interoperable between the route and speed signals. Maybe PTC will lead to a standard signal system.

The shortlines as mentioned are a weak link in this. What does happen to them? Not all are large like the Ohio Central. What is an Ann Arbor type of railroad going to do to comply?

I was glad to see the Feds put assign an inplemenation date. This provides focus. Will the date be met? Probably not given the history of these types of things.

Only time will tell.

Which brings us back to PTC - which would override the crew actions if a signal is misread (or in TWC/DTC territory if an authority limit is passed). http://www.fra.dot.gov/Pages/1265.shtml gives a good overview of the intent and the various systems out there. Frankly I was quite surprised at how many different systems are being tested, obviously some are for rather unique operating situations (Alaska RR & Amtrak) yet "interoperability" has been identified as a goal, so one would think that compatibility between the freight systems at least will be forthcoming. Also of interest is the goal of having PTC in "widespread operation" by December 2015. I wonder what measurements are going to be used to see if that goal is met (% of route miles, % of train starts or some other measurement)? Finally it's good to see that one of the pilot operations is on the Ohio Central, because what do the shortlines/regionals do to comply? Will an affordable system be developed to meet both the needs of a shortline that has a limited number of movements and will it be affordable for them?

The the rules for Track Authority Territory are very clear as to what can be used as identifiable locations for limits. These include mileposts as stated, defect detectors, station signs and siding switches. It matters not that the mile posts are exactly 5,280 feet apart on the railroad. (Yes some miles are longer than others.) If the Track Authority states; do not pass milepost X, one doesn't do it regardless of weather or other conditions. It's called knowing the physical characteristics of the subdivision. In saying that out west on the CP they use points everybody knows like "the big rock", I pasue and say: "How many "big rocks' are their in the mountains? Why is the "big rock" easier to see that maybe 200 feet away then a milepost that's twenty feet away in fog or snow?

Signal Territory is not automatically safer then Track Authority Territory. Both still require the major flaw in either territory to respond correctly........THE HUMANS! Hey, believe it or not, trains have and do run into each other in signal territory.

Bottom line, Track Authority works on the Mt. Clemens Sub. The costs incured by delays versus costs of a signal sytem still favor Track Authority. Yes at times somebody is waiting at Tappan, Haven or Nolan. The biggest hang up is not the Track Authorities but Port Huron itself. It can only take so many trains at a time. Remember the Mt. Clemens Sub is not the only place trains arrive from at Port Huron.

Oh by the way, Nolan is not a CTC control point.