East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Adding this for the lolz, but screenshot from Colbert from last night:
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Someone told me that some NS crews have been ignoring the DD's when they announce a Defect in fear that they would lose the job if they have to stop the train. It sounds plausible to me but can anyone confirm this?

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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That would be a direct rules violation and they would be subject to suspension or termination. On the other hand, if someone higher up TOLD them not to stop, that would be a different story...

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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David Collins wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:30 pm
Someone told me that some NS crews have been ignoring the DD's when they announce a Defect in fear that they would lose the job if they have to stop the train. It sounds plausible to me but can anyone confirm this?
Report I heard initially is the derailment may have happened as the train was begining to slow as a result of setting off the DD near the derailment. I wonder if the braking applied to the car with a bad wheel bearing caused a catasrophic failure of that bearing, causing everything else to chain reaction.

Not a great comparison, but several NASCAR wrecks have happened when the braking force is applied as a car slows for a corner and the brake rotor brakes apart due to the forces applied. Jeff Gordon had a scary wreck like that at Pocono one time. Entered turn 1 and the rotor flew apart and he spun into the outside wall and was thankfully not hurt.

I could see the application of braking forces being the breaking point for the car in question and causing the failure.

I have also head, not all off the detectors along the line are hot box detectors. Some are simply dragging equipment detectors, so the hot box may not have been detected. I am not familiar with this line to know where each type of detector is located.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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chapmaja wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:24 pm
David Collins wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:30 pm
Someone told me that some NS crews have been ignoring the DD's when they announce a Defect in fear that they would lose the job if they have to stop the train. It sounds plausible to me but can anyone confirm this?
Report I heard initially is the derailment may have happened as the train was begining to slow as a result of setting off the DD near the derailment. I wonder if the braking applied to the car with a bad wheel bearing caused a catasrophic failure of that bearing, causing everything else to chain reaction.
The chain of events per the NTSB is that the crew received a hot box alarm and began to slow the train, and THEN they lost their air. So it derailed before any braking began.

The million dollar question right now is what are the facts regarding the passing of the prior hotbox detector near Salem, OH, about 15 miles prior to the derailment scene. There is a lot of speculation, but it will ultimately be key as to what happened there.

For instance, if the detector alarmed for being hot, and the crew ignored it at their own perogative, the crew is at fault - I find this extremely unlikely.

If the detector alarmed for being hot, and the crew was told to ignore it, then whoever told them that is at fault. Theoretically the crew should have good faith challenged such a directive also. I also find this extremely unlikely.

Also, it is possible, but probably unlikely, that the bearing failed rapidly, thus passing the Salem Detector within the no-alarm range, only to be on fire and failing by the East Palestine Detector.

Lastly, the detector malfunctioned and thus did not properly measure the temperature or sent an incorrect transmission. I personally think this is the most likely scenario. There seems to be evidence of the bearing caught on camera on fire near the Salem Detector, which would support this theory.

Then, if the detector malfunctioned, the maintenance will need to be looked into.

It is very possible that at the end of the day, two rare equipment failures just so happened to occur at the same time with catastrophic consequences. I know many are taking their potshots at NS, PSR, Wall Street, etc, but fact is folks that this is railroading, which relies on a lot of equipment to function properly to avoid disasters. Even a very well maintained piece of equipment can fail.

So I would take a break from the potshots and incriminations and hold off until the NTSB gives us all more details.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the "bomb train" with loaded hazmats from Midland TX to Midland MI and the empties back to TX. One of the posters said it was limited to 40mph in Northern MI but I know it was 25 mph in the Grand Rapids area. Every jurisdiction the train passed through got information on what to do if there was a mishap.
I would think NS could run a hazmat train at reduced speeds with the number of hazmat cars in this train

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Raildudes dad wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:45 pm
I would think NS could run a hazmat train at reduced speeds with the number of hazmat cars in this train
There are definitely rules about High-Threat-Urban-Areas for "Key" trains, but that definitely doesn't apply to East Palestine, OH.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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It is very possible that at the end of the day, two rare equipment failures just so happened to occur at the same time with catastrophic consequences. I know many are taking their potshots at NS, PSR, Wall Street, etc, but fact is folks that this is railroading, which relies on a lot of equipment to function properly to avoid disasters. Even a very well maintained piece of equipment can fail.
I agree. Let the NTSB do there job.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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As of 2016 NS had a combined detector near MP 50, East Palestine, a dragging equipment detector near MP 61, Columbiana, and a combined detector near MP 69, Salem.

It is likely that the heat did not set off the detector at MP 69, nothing was dragging at MP 61, and the detector at MP 50 alarmed.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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David Collins wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:30 pm
It sounds plausible to me
Tell me you have never worked for a railroad without saying you never worked for a railroad. The only way to have a crew ignore a detector is if it is out of service.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Standard Railfan wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:10 am
As of 2016 NS had a combined detector near MP 50, East Palestine, a dragging equipment detector near MP 61, Columbiana, and a combined detector near MP 69, Salem.

It is likely that the heat did not set off the detector at MP 69, nothing was dragging at MP 61, and the detector at MP 50 alarmed.
Based on the preliminary report released today, all detectors were functioning as intended, and the bearing was shown to be slightly warm but not at or even all that close to the alarm thresholds until the detector that is essentially at the derailment site. It just happened to fail at the wrong time.

No evidence of wrongdoing by anybody. Simply a rare, random mechanical failure that slipped past the detector network.

It'll be interesting to see if the FRA ends up doing any rulemaking on DDs, as it is currently up to the railroads to set their own standards. Perhaps the industry may also move to reduce the spacing between them. But ultimately, no evidence of "cost cutting" or PSR having anything to do with this. If it were a significant share of the cause, the NTSB would have highlighted it by now.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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NTSB preliminary report came out today
I took some notes. Go to their site it's
Posted today 4 pages
AAT = above ambient temp
Car 23 the hot one (a hopper)
1st detector
MP 79.9 - 38° AAT
2nd detector
MP 69.01 - 103° AAT
3rd detector
MP 49.81 253° AAT
NS had detectors set to activate or warn
At 170°
That being said first two detectors would
Have reported no defects
Crew got one warning the report says was
Applying dynos and ringing up the man
While bringing the train to a safe stop lost
Air thus emergency stop as it derailed.
Crew saw flames after the stop notified
The dispatcher of derailment got permission
To de couple after setting 2 hand breaks on the
Train and moved the power up the line a mile
For there safety.
Mike MP 473.9

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Thank you saturnalia, Typhoon and Mike. "Someone told me",,,or, "I heard from someone" are not plausable comments by any means because I HEARD WHEN YOU MAKE COMMENTS LIKE THAT I COME TO THE CONCLUSION YOU ARE AN IDIOT. OMG...the downright lies in the working press are bad enough but I guess I incorrectly assumed that this group may have been beyond that. Next we are going to hear about the civil war era brake systems?
You do NOT go by HBDE detectors and ignore their message. DO NOT EVER. No official will EVER tell you to do that EVER.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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The takeaway I got from it is the threshold for alarm should probably be lowered from 170 AAT to somewhere around 120-130 to give the crew more time to react to potential catastrophe.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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around 120-130 to give the crew more time to react to potential catastrophe.
LMAO, hell one could see bearing temps like that on a 95-100°F ambient day.

The internet search reveals.... "The melting point of iron alloys and the melting point of steel, occur at higher temperatures, around 2,200-2,500 Fahrenheit (°F)"

One would think 170°is more than safe and adequate.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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R Bedell wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:27 am
around 120-130 to give the crew more time to react to potential catastrophe.
LMAO, hell one could see bearing temps like that on a 95-100°F ambient day.

The internet search reveals.... "The melting point of iron alloys and the melting point of steel, occur at higher temperatures, around 2,200-2,500 Fahrenheit (°F)"

One would think 170°is more than safe and adequate.
What do you propose then? More frequent defect detection?

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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It is my understanding, that DD are placed every 20-30 miles. That on the surface, seems to be adequate. But no matter what guideline, rule, regulation, or policy one develops, NOTHING is 100% fool proof.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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An absolute limit would have to be based on limits of the lubricants in the bearing and recognizing that the internal temperature would be higher than the surface temperature the detector senses. Look beyond an absolute alarm temperature and monitor the temperature differential detector to detector.

David Collins wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:30 pm
Someone told me that some NS crews have been ignoring the DD's when they announce a Defect in fear that they would lose the job if they have to stop the train. It sounds plausible to me but can anyone confirm this?
Stop and think about that. The crew doesn't make an independent decision to stop. The detector presents them with a defect. The rulebook says "The train must be immediately stopped for inspection, consistent with safe train handling procedures anytime a “CRITICAL ALARM” is received for detection of a hot bearing (hot box) or any dragging equipment defect." Do you really think NS would empower employees to ignore the rulebook?

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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PatAzo wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:09 pm
David Collins wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:30 pm
Someone told me that some NS crews have been ignoring the DD's when they announce a Defect in fear that they would lose the job if they have to stop the train. It sounds plausible to me but can anyone confirm this?
Stop and think about that. The crew doesn't make an independent decision to stop. The detector presents them with a defect. The rulebook says "The train must be immediately stopped for inspection, consistent with safe train handling procedures anytime a “CRITICAL ALARM” is received for detection of a hot bearing (hot box) or any dragging equipment defect." Do you really think NS would empower employees to ignore the rulebook?
I've heard that employees are afraid that if they stop their train for any reason other than for a red light, they're gonna be fired because all the railroad wants is to keep the trains moving, and doesn't care about safety. Like I said, I wasn't told that directly, it was just something I heard from someone. Onwards.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Taken somewhat out of context but an infamous quote from history. "...in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility;"

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