East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Saturnalia
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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David Collins wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:06 pm
I've heard that employees are afraid that if they stop their train for any reason other than for a red light, they're gonna be fired because all the railroad wants is to keep the trains moving, and doesn't care about safety. Like I said, I wasn't told that directly, it was just something I heard from someone. Onwards.
Heard from there? Sounds like you're just repeating a bunch of crap from somebody about something you (and probably they) have zero understanding of or experience with.
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R Bedell
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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I've heard that employees are afraid that if they stop their train for any reason other than for a red light, they're gonna be fired because all the railroad
Perhaps that is a "wild a$$ rumor". :shock:

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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I have a question for those who know how the PTC /signal /communication systems work.

Does anyone outside of radio range of a detector know when an alarm occurs?

For instance, if a hotbox detector alarms, does the dispatcher know? Will PTC stop the train or alert anyone else?

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Standard Railfan wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:52 am
I have a question for those who know how the PTC /signal /communication systems work.

Does anyone outside of radio range of a detector know when an alarm occurs?

For instance, if a hotbox detector alarms, does the dispatcher know? Will PTC stop the train or alert anyone else?
Detectors on the big railroads at least are tied into the dispatching system and will alert the dispatcher as well as the radio broadcast.

On Union Pacific, they’ve setup quite a bit of their network such that it will hold the next absolute signal to stop until the train gets an all-clear from the detector, then it will display the signal and they continue on. This feature has actually caused some issues with the longer trains, since these behemoths will start to encounter advanced approaches to the upcoming stop before they clear the detector, whereas the shorter trains clear the detector in plenty of time to see their next signal upgrade before they (or PTC) need to start slowing the train accordingly.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Neat, appears that some of the toxic soil was being shipped to Michigan for processing and disposal, Romulus and Bellville. They say the shipments have stopped: https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... lment.html
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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~Z~ wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:12 am
Neat, appears that some of the toxic soil was being shipped to Michigan for processing and disposal, Romulus and Bellville. They say the shipments have stopped: https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... lment.html
If it is being safely handled, who cares?

As usual, the media and politicians who don’t understand anything about any of this will raise alarm like they’re just spreading the contaminated soil around our cornfields and calling it good. I’m sure those companies are remediating the pollution, or are permanently landfilling it in a controlled facility designed for this very type of problem.

But nah, scream bloody murder and slow down the cleanup of East Palestine. The faster the remediation efforts, the smaller the long term effects as the pollutants will have less time to spread.

Never let a good crisis that plays on people’s insecurities go to waste, though.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Saturnalia wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:21 am
If it is being safely handled, who cares?

As usual, the media and politicians who don’t understand anything about any of this will raise alarm like they’re just spreading the contaminated soil around our cornfields and calling it good. I’m sure those companies are remediating the pollution, or are permanently landfilling it in a controlled facility designed for this very type of problem.
There’s a history of that around here though, mostly stemming from the Detroit demolition program. There’s been several well documented cases of asbestos contaminated materials just winding up in the landfill and not being transported correctly. There’s also a federal investigation into contaminated soil being used to backfill holes left behind from demolished houses.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Chip wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:59 am
R Bedell wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:27 am
around 120-130 to give the crew more time to react to potential catastrophe.
LMAO, hell one could see bearing temps like that on a 95-100°F ambient day.

The internet search reveals.... "The melting point of iron alloys and the melting point of steel, occur at higher temperatures, around 2,200-2,500 Fahrenheit (°F)"

One would think 170°is more than safe and adequate.
What do you propose then? More frequent defect detection?
There is onboard bearing temperature monitoring equipment systems already in use elsewhere. Why US railroads always need an act of congress to implement this type of technology is mindboggling. The benefits provided by the use of this tech would be better than the resulting clean up costs.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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redcrumbox wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:32 pm
There is onboard bearing temperature monitoring equipment systems already in use elsewhere. Why US railroads always need an act of congress to implement this type of technology is mindboggling. The benefits provided by the use of this tech would be better than the resulting clean up costs.
There is a lot of passenger equipment out there with on-board temperature sensors. When there is one agency that owns and operates, its easy to have the higher tech stuff.

Problem with the North American freight system is that you have hundreds of car owners and hundreds of railroads that would need to both agree on a standard and then purchase and maintain the equipment. Like the electric braking concepts, the question of who will pay, who will maintain, what the standard should be, all make the problem even harder.

And given the existing solution is only slightly bettered by the on-board tech, the cost-benefit ratio isn't compelling enough to either party to self-initiate.

Same was said and done with PTC. Vastly more expensive than the benefits could overcome, so Congress stepped in, forced it, and made a huge expensive mess.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Standard Railfan wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:52 am
I have a question for those who know how the PTC /signal /communication systems work.

Does anyone outside of radio range of a detector know when an alarm occurs?

For instance, if a hotbox detector alarms, does the dispatcher know? Will PTC stop the train or alert anyone else?
On CSX's Grand Rapids sub-division (I'm only pointing out this sub-div since I listen to it on the scanner) they have a more complex system for the Hot Bearing Detector's (HBD) data that's transmitted by satellite uploads to their center in Jacksonville, FL, in addition to the typical radio report that's transmitted to the train from the Defect Detector (DD) site. Not long ago, the Dispatcher had stopped CSX train M327 due to an "anomaly" for a car & it was set off even though it hadn't actuated an alarm at the DD site.

On Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, where I was Signal's Dept Electronic Technician, we took care of the maintenance & testing of the HBD systems (among other electronic devices), an alarming HBD or DED (Dragging Equipment Detector) would drop the signal at the nearest Interlocking the train was approaching to a Stop in addition to an alarm indication alerting the Dispatcher.

Later, DD site radios were added but due to the volume of rail traffic, the DD site radio would only "talk" when a defect was detected. The Dispatcher would always communicate with a train having a defect, the DD site radio was added as a backup in case the DD site's data transmission was interrupted to the Dispatcher.

Our HBD criteria was:

Differential Alarm = 106 degrees F when comparing opposite bearings on the same axle, where, one was found to be 106 or more degrees warmer than the other bearing.

Absolute Alarm should any bearing read 161 degrees F above the ambient temperature. Some territories had opted for 205 degrees F above the ambient temperature for this alarm.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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The dirty-dirt going to Romulus goes to the US Ecology dirty-dirt plant south of Van Born Road. That dirt will get the contaminants burned off/cleaned. It is serviced by CSX.

Don't know where in Belleville the dirty-dirt goes. My guess is maybe that is where they interchange the dirty-dirt cars with CSX.
Saturnalia wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:21 am
~Z~ wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:12 am
Neat, appears that some of the toxic soil was being shipped to Michigan for processing and disposal, Romulus and Bellville. They say the shipments have stopped: https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... lment.html
If it is being safely handled, who cares?
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Saturnalia, you have come a long way. Good job IMHO.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Doktor No wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:52 pm
Saturnalia, you have come a long way. Good job IMHO.
There is no substitute for experience.
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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Shipments have resumed
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/ep ... fety-check
AARR wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:27 pm
The dirty-dirt going to Romulus goes to the US Ecology dirty-dirt plant south of Van Born Road. That dirt will get the contaminants burned off/cleaned. It is serviced by CSX.

Don't know where in Belleville the dirty-dirt goes. My guess is maybe that is where they interchange the dirty-dirt cars with CSX.
Saturnalia wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:21 am
~Z~ wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:12 am
Neat, appears that some of the toxic soil was being shipped to Michigan for processing and disposal, Romulus and Bellville. They say the shipments have stopped: https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... lment.html
If it is being safely handled, who cares?
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

Unread post by jwilliam33 »

Again the NIMBY's and media fail to recognize that the Michigan facilities are designed to and continue to take hazardous waste from a wide geographical area. I have a trucker friend from PA that often runs east coast haz mat to those facilities on a regular basis. Dump trailer lined with plastic at loading, respirators and tyvek suits and he hauls straight through to Michigan. Similar contaminants to what is coming out of East Palestine.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

Unread post by Standard Railfan »

Thank you for the replies to my HBD question.

The media circus and political sideshow around this cleanup are mind boggling. The EPA is looking like a bunch of political hacks not the science based entity it is supposed to be.

I stopped reading when the EPA announced that they were “ordering” NS to conduct a cleanup. The law and rules are clear. NS must conduct a cleanup, NS is aware of their responsibility, have already started the cleanup, and have made great strides to comply with the rules.

As soon as the “activists” rolled into town the stuff hit the fan. I am waiting for Fieger to make an appearance. :roll:

The to disposal facilities in Michigan that were receiving waste are licensed inspected and compliant.

I’m glad I retired.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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Standard Railfan wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:00 pm
The media circus and political sideshow around this cleanup are mind boggling.
Seriously, nobody reporting on this knows anything about trains.

Worried this will push freight off the rails and onto the roads. Which is even more dangerous.

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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The other day I was in fostoria, I was shooting CSX train M560 and it came to a adrupt emergency stop. There was a smoking hot axle on an auto part car and the conductor got a ride to the car cut the train in half and took that car to one of the yards in town to be fixed. Then they shoved back to the rest of the train and finally took off for Selkirk. I read online that Norfolk Southern had a monitor team to ignore such alerts because getting a mechanic would take too much time. It happened in Sandusky last October. NS got a safety alert to stop the train but the monitor team told them not to do so and the train wrecked. Is that even possible? Why couldn't NS just took the bad ordered car to a rip track or a siding or a yard? https://www.propublica.org/article/norf ... derailment Idk how accurate this article is but this is where I read about NS ignoring safety alerts

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

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CSXBOY wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:55 pm
I read online that Norfolk Southern had a monitor team to ignore such alerts because getting a mechanic would take too much time. It happened in Sandusky last October. NS got a safety alert to stop the train but the monitor team told them not to do so and the train wrecked. Is that even possible?
Possible that a detector would alert and someone remotely with no other information would tell a crew not to stop? No that is an internet fantasy. The article you posted a link to says "The company sent a mechanic to the train to diagnose the problem." but it could not be determined what was causing the wheel to overheat. Is it possible they did not find a defect and determined it was o.k. to continue? Yes.

The article says it was a "wheel" on a locomotive. I don't see a derailed locomotive. https://youtu.be/xZaRPcU4JFw

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Re: East Palestine, Ohio Major NS Derailment

Unread post by David Collins »

Not sure if it's the FRA making the decision for NS, or if it's NS being proactive, but this just got sent out to all NS crews.
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