NS Peavine talk

[midland sub]

I'm under the impression the only stone that came out of Plum Run was system ballast for N&W/NS in the last 30 plus years or longer.

Evans deal is dead in the water. The stone cars that came over from the CIND to the CCET for storage were possibly going to be used for the Plum Run service. They are all now gone having been leased to the WLE. I thought the Evans deal was going to be something in Batavia and not Newtown? Going back I'm thinking ten years there was someone that set up a small bulk transload on I believe using the spur in between the former Ford plant and the closed IP/GP box plant. Whatever and where ever this customer was, it didn't last long. I've always been told stone market is super competitive in most markets and thin, thin profit margins. Throw in a big competitor in Melvin Stone that owns several large quarries in the area with their own stone car fleet that is part of a larger JRJ road construction company and not to mention what comes off the Ohio River barges. Same issue is going to pop up on the new Portsmouth bypass project. Melvin opened up a stone transload over in Logan with the intent of taking a chunk of the southeastern Ohio market along with their sister company Cox Paving. I think if you talk to the traffic and marketing people at most rail companies they will tell you there's actually lots and lots of business out there. Problem is a lot of it doesn't make enough money to justify the service. Tough to be a railroad sometimes. Just as your customers depend on your financial health, it's even more important for their financial health. Can't just pick up the railroad and move it when someone goes out of business or changes their business plan and no longer needs rail.

I don't really see the Panama Canal project being the reason the Peavine returns to a thru route. Pay attention to what NS ends up doing with the CFE trackage rights and knocking out the rest of the single track between Columbus and Bellevue on the Sandusky Dist. Might just be the cushion along with the coal traffic continuing to decline that keeps the Peavine on the shelf. If you do route intermodal traffic over the line what's it going to cost? Clearance issues and rehabbing the track to some sort of manageable service levels are just the beginning. Then you need to figure out how to squeeze that much more traffic thru an already congested Cincy area plus all the way north of there.

Just let the thru traffic stuff die for once. Let the CCET do what they need to do to keep what's active now going.

[brc0227]

Someone said recently, and at the moment I can't remember who it was, that NS hasn't used stone from Plum Run in a long time. Like I said before. I don't personally know all the dealings between NS and Plum Run that well. Most of my limited knowledge between them is 2nd hand.

As for the Panama canal stuff. I guess it all depends on how much traffic increases once that's all said And done. I still don't know that they reopen the peavine to through traffic. It'll have to be the right combination of things happen for them to reopen it. And what that combination is I couldn't tell you at the moment. I do stand by my earlier comments in this thread that the line itself isn't in as bad a shape as many believe. I've talked to several people from Bridge and Building and Maintenance of Way at NS that know that line well. And all have said it wouldn't take much to get it up to track speed. Biggest issue would be signals.

[brc0227]

I do agree though that for now they're going put their money and efforts into running their allotted trains on the CF&E. And also adding double track in the northern region. Which I've heard they're planning on adding double track in several areas up north real soon.

[cumbres]

As I understand it, NS is only allowed 6 trains a day on the CF&E according to what I have read on this site and others. The canal project is supposed to be a big deal according to the people in the State of Virginia. They have a real nice PDF online that goes into a lot of details about what they are expecting in the next several years. The Peavine wouldn`t be used for intermodal, it would be for the slower freight that NS wants off the Heartland Corridor, or so it is rumored from what I`ve read on this site and others. I live near the Peavine, and like brc0027 says, the line isn`t as bad as they would have you believe. I would say to get on Youtube and look up "Jawtooth" and check out his videos. He filmed literally every T51 that ran on the Vine in the last 2 years and there are videos of the trains doing every bit of 25 - 35 mph on it. Take from them what you will, but there are many other lines used daily in Ohio that are in far worse shape. It would seem that it would be cheaper to utilize something that you already have than to build miles and miles of new line and all the associated signaling systems and whatnot. I`m not saying that the Peavine is the answer because if it was, NS would be using it today. At some point though, they are going to have to fish or cut bait with it. Like I said before, I`m a realist and when I see trains going across the Vera Bridge heading West, then I will believe it is open for business.

[heypal6878]

I agree double stacks will not cut it on the Peavine. For NS to spend millions just for double stacks won't happen. Yet in three more years NS is going to need to do something with increased traffic from the eastern seaboard going west. The Peavine as I see it will open back up. How much remains to be seen. Coal trains, fright and maybe single stacks will run fine on the Peavine. Bring product to Cincinnati on the Peavine might be a little much. Yet it NS can make money on bring products east to south they will.

Both CSX and NS is banking on the final expansion of the canal project. Already rail traffic is backing up north the rails are stopped up nothing is moving. Goods are not getting to the market on time and this is really ticking off both railroad companies. Even with additional rails being put down up there it is too late. The influx of traffic is already here and there is no where to go with all the traffic. Most of what runs up there are double stacks. Yet the freights are also holding up the line with CSX. What a mess and no where to go with any of it.

Soon NS will need to make some kind of a move. I would suspect the Peavine will open by how much and when is the question.

[heypal6878]

On the subject of Jaw Tooth this guy loves the Peavine and is not very happy that the line has been cut in the last year. Now the line is open to Seaman yet not sure how much rail traffic if any will be going up that far east. Jaw Tooth has his own You Tube page and it is well worth subscribing to it for sure if you like the Peavine. He has old NS trains running on the tracks up there plus now the new CCET has been running on the Peavine tracks since last April. Pretty interesting and you can add your own comments and read some as well.

[cumbres]

Here is a very well written article from yesterday`s Cincinnati Enquirer on the impact the Panama Canal is expected to have on Ohio and it`s transportation industries. It would appear if correct that Ohio`s railroads are going to be getting a lot busier in the near future. Only time will tell!


http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2 ... /23516205/

[heypal6878]

I'm glad you added this article about the expansion. This kind of sums things up. It will be interesting how NS and CSX are going to handle the load up north as there is no place to put frights now. Looks to be one hell of a mess if someone doesn't come up with a plan soon.

[midland sub]

Here's another link for you guys. NS certainly isn't getting the point that the railfan community knows best. There's always room in Class 1 management for a couple more sharp shooters.

http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en ... inees.html

[cumbres]

Yeah, businesses are always looking for new college educated bean counters to train their way. The problem is, their way isn`t always the most efficient and the old dogs that set up the system that is in place are reluctant to try new ways because it threatens their job. That is the problem in the employment world today, you hit 50 and it`s time for you to go in the eyes of these young "sharpshooters". I just put that link up for all to read because it has a lot of good info about Ohio`s transportation industries relative to the canal re-opening. As I have said before, and I`ll say it again, "When I see trains on the Vera bridge heading West, I`ll believe the Peavine is open, and not until then" Do I think it will happen? I feel there is a definite possibility it could because I have a few sources at NS that think it might, but again I stand on what I said before.
I notice your handle is Midland Sub, do you live near it? I grew up outside of Loveland about a mile and a half from it. It is truly a shame what they did to that once proud line back in the 80`s. Just goes to show you how bad a bean counter can screw up a railroad doesn`t?

[redside20]

Yeah and there are foamers still living in their parents basement who love to tell us how NS should reopen the Peavine, add more track capacity, and so forth..

[cumbres]

I suppose, but I`m not one of them. However, should it happen there are going to be some very surprised people on this forum I would say. Never say never, it always comes back to bite you in the arse!

[heypal6878]

Big business wants old timers to retire. That is the way of the future. Big business wants younger people, new ideas, new concepts, forget about relationships, we only want to make money. I have seen fathers of successful companies hand over their company to their sons who have business degrees. In less than two years the company falls flat on its face.

There was a big article today in the Cincinnati Enquire about General Cable. The CEO Kenny wanted to take the company to new levels and expand overseas. The company grew but over seas there is so much competition. They have different ways of doing business over there. Soon the company became too big and now it is on its back trying to rebrand, reestablish itself. Kenny is stepping down from CEO to be replaced as his ideas are not working.

Thus the same thing could happen to NS a company that is growing faster than every before yet they can't deliver the goods on time. They want more business yet there is no place to move the fright. All the bean counters in the world can't fix the problem of moving freight. What happen to the old guys who knew how to fix the problem. Oh yeah they were forced to take early retirement.

So here we are a great company like NS expanding, getting more business than ever before, keeping their shareholders happy, yet their customers might just start looking at CSX, CN, or UP to move their goods to market. NS best not get too cocky or they to will be in the same boat as others who over expand. Sometime older minds work much better than book sense young whipper snappers that graduated looking for high income and don't have a clue about what is outside the box.

As far as the Peavine NS is not going to let anyone buy it out. So they are holding it for a reason. Otherwise it would be abandon from Seamen on never to open again.

[cumbres]

CCET delivered the switch engine to Winchester Ag Services yesterday that they used to use up till NS hauled it out of there last year. CCET has been storing it on their siding in Newtown ever since. They had to tie it down on the Ag siding last night near the main line because the rails started to spread and it could have derailed. You can see videos of the whole trip on Youtube. Type "Jawtooth" in the search box and go to his channel. He has at least 15 videos of the trip out to Winchester on there.

[Muleskinner]

Hey! I'm new here.

I have always liked the Peavine line. I had several train excursions on that line, riding behind the 611 back in the day.

I'm sure all of you have heard this, but back when I noticed freight was no longer running on the line, I E-mailed NS and asked why?
They told me there are several reasons why. *The bridge over Scioto river needs major work. *The line is too hilly and curvy. *They are only limited an amount of freight cars on the line. & *Not cost effective! Then I heard about a year ago they were going to remove the track between McDermott Ohio & the Scioto river & demolition the bridge for scrap. I'm glad it has not come to that .... yet & I don't know why they haven't .... Maybe the low cost of scrap metal has changed their minds. I would love to see the line open back up again for passenger or excursion rides. I don't think it will open for freight again, just not feasible or cost effective. Maybe if it opens for Passenger or Excursions, maybe they will run a freight through every once in a while .... who knows!

Mike

[Railfan9]

Part of it is open and used to haul freight from Clare yard in Cincinnati to Winchester and is operated by Cincinnati East Terminal Railway.

[heypal6878]

Don't think the line will ever be open for rail excursions. The CCET has it on a lease for three years to haul freight only. It was just recently that NS granted the CCET to open the line to Winchester.

There is however plenty of discussion to put a commuter line on the Peavine in the future. The line will run from downtown Cincinnati to Milford maybe a little beyond. State funding is a issue and of course NS will need to approve. I don't see either happening in the near future. The funding alone will cost more that opening the entire line back up. They will need drop off stations for the commuters who are riding the trains, parking lots, and they will need to fix signals at rail crossing as well. Then there is staffing and maintenance on the commuter train. Major expense! After the train reaches the destination downtown a bus will need to transport all around town as the train tracks only go to the Boathouse on River Road. So really that could work but just too much expense.

[Muleskinner]

Don't think the line will ever be open for rail excursions. The CCET has it on a lease for three years to haul freight only. It was just recently that NS granted the CCET to open the line to Winchester.

There is however plenty of discussion to put a commuter line on the Peavine in the future. The line will run from downtown Cincinnati to Milford maybe a little beyond. State funding is a issue and of course NS will need to approve. I don't see either happening in the near future. The funding alone will cost more that opening the entire line back up. They will need drop off stations for the commuters who are riding the trains, parking lots, and they will need to fix signals at rail crossing as well. Then there is staffing and maintenance on the commuter train. Major expense! After the train reaches the destination downtown a bus will need to transport all around town as the train tracks only go to the Boathouse on River Road. So really that could work but just too much expense.

So true, cost would be the main issue.

Glad to see the CCET putting it to use as a spur line. How long that will last is up to the businesses using it.

[heypal6878]

Looks like the Ag and the paper company at the old Ford plant will keep the CCET pretty busy. The paper company is ready to expand I hear. Adding new jobs so they will be needing more material and will be shipping more stuff out. The Ag is the money maker for the CCET but not sure how much more business is out that way. Now much from Clare to Batavia.

[midland sub]

I doubt any of us here ever live long enough for commuter rail to ever see the light of day in Cincinnati. The unfortunate decision to shove the streetcar project down the throats of the citizens and the boondoggle it's becoming will kill any true commuter rail opportunities for a very, very long time. It's been interesting to hear the discussion about the streetcar and to hear the more conservative voices admit that light and more traditional commuter rail would have been more beneficial to area. But lesson to be learned is the power of consultants and real estate developers behind such projects where the end all benefit is nothing more than a quick profit for the two of those only....

Getting back to the CCET, supposedly going to Winchester today to pick up the 9 loads.

Don't think the line will ever be open for rail excursions. The CCET has it on a lease for three years to haul freight only. It was just recently that NS granted the CCET to open the line to Winchester.

There is however plenty of discussion to put a commuter line on the Peavine in the future. The line will run from downtown Cincinnati to Milford maybe a little beyond. State funding is a issue and of course NS will need to approve. I don't see either happening in the near future. The funding alone will cost more that opening the entire line back up. They will need drop off stations for the commuters who are riding the trains, parking lots, and they will need to fix signals at rail crossing as well. Then there is staffing and maintenance on the commuter train. Major expense! After the train reaches the destination downtown a bus will need to transport all around town as the train tracks only go to the Boathouse on River Road. So really that could work but just too much expense.