Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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AARR
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Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE) began operations in 1988 from Yuma (MP 249.6) to the end of the line in Elberta (MP 291.8) for 42.2 miles. In 2017 the line was cut back to Homestead (MP 277.4). In 2021 they acquired the line from Yuma to the west of Cadillac (MP 229.4). The total distance is 48 miles with one mile of trackage rights into Selma Yard where they interchange with GLC.

Interchange is with GLC ( formerly TS&B) at Yuma. F&SE has trackage rights from MP 249.6 to 248.1 to exchange cars.

In 1987 TSBY ran its last train to Elberta/Frankfort to remove what few cars were left. Due to poor service several customers west of the sand pit at Yuma had discontinued rail service including the Sargent Sand pit at Harlan and a couple other small shippers.

Koch, an oil refiner with plants in the Chicago area, need a location to store product until it was ready to ship to its customers. There was a large and unused tank farm at the end of the now inactive train yard on the Elberta side of Betsie Lake. The tank farm was accessible by large ships so Koch was interested in acquiring the storage tanks. However, they wanted the option to use rail service to ship their products out (the plan was to use their ships to bring their product to the tank farm). With TSBY leaving no rail service Koch was hesitant to close the deal.

Several former MIGN principals, who had been unceremoniously outcaste from their original line, (and were also operating a line from Charlevoix to Pellston, MI) acquired the finances and bought the line (which was sold at scrap value).
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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AARR wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:45 pm
In 1987 TSBY ran its last train to Elberta/Frankfort to remove what few cars were left. Due to poor service several customers west of the sand pit at Yuma had discontinued rail service including the Sargent Sand pit at Harlan and a couple other small shippers.
More to come.....
There’s been quite a buzz amongst the local paper Rail fans since the announcement that the Frankfurt and Souteastern would be taking over the line into Frankfurt and Elberta. Of course with such announcements comes the usual questions, speculation and scuttle butt.

So let’s get started question # 1 is there any chance that the new F&SE Will resume Lake Michigan carferry operations.
2# Will the frozen pie plant in Frankfurt resume shipping by rail.
3# Are the feedmills in Thompsonville and Beulah active shippers?
4# With the beautiful scenery along with Crystal Lake and the booming tourist industry in Frankfurt itself will there be any chance of any kind of excursion/tourist service?
5# Are there any active or potential customers in the towns of Copemish and Mesick.

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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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Thank you. You are assisting me to think this through with your questions/observations. Also, the excursion/tourist is a good suggestion. I have responded below.
GR H & C wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:09 pm
There’s been quite a buzz amongst the local paper Rail fans since the announcement that the Frankfort and Southeastern would be taking over the line into Frankfort and Elberta. Of course with such announcements comes the usual questions, speculation and scuttle butt.
So let’s get started question # 1 is there any chance that the new F&SE Will resume Lake Michigan carferry operations.
No, by 1988, the year F&SE began service, the car ferry economics made it an unviable option compared to sending cars through Chicago even though Chicago was quite the quagmire then (and still is).

2# Will the frozen pie plant in Frankfurt resume shipping by rail.
Pet-Ritz continued as a customer receiving liquid sweetener (about 2-3 cars a month) until it closed in 1990. The frozen fruit that used to come over in the car ferries went to trucks after the ferries stopped.

3# Are the feed mills in Thompsonville and Beulah active shippers?
No, by 1987 (the year before F&SE started service) they had stopped rail service and were not interested in trying it again.

4# With the beautiful scenery along with Crystal Lake and the booming tourist industry in Frankfurt itself will there be any chance of any kind of excursion/tourist service?
Yes, I will go into more detail later but F&SE/TSBY (later GLC) and the Steam Railroading Institute collaborate on excursions (I am not sure about tourist trains yet).

5# Are there any active or potential customers in the towns of Copemish and Mesick.
I will go into more detail later but the short answer is Copemish and Mesick do not have any customers.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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By sometime in 1988 F&SE was open for business. They acquired a pair of former Ann Arbor (Michigan Interstate) RS2's to start with.

Owner: Frankfort & Southeastern 301
Model: Alco RS2 Built As: GBW 301 (RS2)
Serial Number: 77914 Order No: 20474
Frame Number: prime mover # 11314 Built: 2/1950
Notes: Acquired in 1988
Other locos with this serial: AA 301(RS2) RRB 301(RS2) GBW 301(RS2)
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Owner: Frankfort & Southeastern 303
Model: Alco RS2 Built As: GBW 303 (RS2)
Serial Number: 77916 Order No: 20474
Frame Number: prime mover # 11316 Built: 2/1950
Notes: Acquired in 1988
Other locos with this serial: AA 303(RS2) RRB 303(RS3) GBW 303(RS2)
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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The first several years were lean because the Koch Asphalt Tank Farm did not really get going until 1992.

The only other significant customer was the Sargent Sand plant between Harlan and Mesick which was shipping 30-40 cars a week of foundry sand to a couple of Ford casting plants including one in Windsor.

Pet-Ritz, the frozen pie plant in Frankfort, still received 2-3 cars a month of liquid sweeteners. They were located on what was left of the original mainline into downtown Frankfort. They stopped receiving fruit when the ferries stopped service in 1982. However, they closed the plant in 1990.

By 1992 the Koch asphalt tank farm was in full operation. Typically during their busy season they would ship 15-22 cars per day, five days per week. During the slower times of the year they would ship half to a third of that.

On a typical day the two RS2's would start around 7am and spend several hours switching the asphalt loading docks before departing for Yuma. On the way, usually three to four times per week, they would pick up around 10 cars of foundry sand at Sargent. TSBY has built a second siding southeast of the Yuma Sand Mine and that is where F&SE would exchange cars before heading back to Elberta.

Although the track had been rehabbed around 1980 it was not in good condition due to deferred maintenance and speeds were limited to 10 mph so it took a full 12 hours most days to complete the daily assignments.

Also, around 1992, F&SE (as well as TSBY) acquired a group of ex-CR and C&NW 100 ton covered hoppers to replace the aging 70 ton cars. This reduced car loads from 30-40 to 21-28 per week (although they moved the same tonnage).

More to come.....
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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With the asphalt business taking off it was decided to replace the RS2's. The ownership had worked around ALCO's , Baldwin's and EMD's at MIGN and believed that EMD's made the most economical sense. Coincidentally, at this time, a new owner had acquired TSBY, Jim Shepherd, and he had bought four SOU high-nose GP35's. Two of them he was going to keep for TSBY but the other two were for sale. F&SE bought the two for sale and had them rebuilt, their noses chopped and derated to 2000 hp. They were designated GP38m's.

Owner: Frankfort & Southeastern 2647
Model: EMD GP35 Built As: SOU 2674 (GP35)
Serial Number: 29929 Order No: 7774
Frame Number: 7774-30 Built: 2/1965
Notes: Rebuilt to 38m and bought from TSBY in 1993
Other locos with this serial: TSBY 2647 (GP35) SOU 2647(GP35)
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Owner: Frankfort & Southeastern 2674
Model: EMD GP35 Built As: SOU 2674 (GP35)
Serial Number: 29929 Order No: 7774
Frame Number: 7774-30 Built: 2/1965
Notes: Rebuilt to 38m and bought from TSBY in 1993
Other locos with this serial: TSBY 2674 (GP35) SOU 2674(GP35)
Image

In 1993 a waste-wood burning cogeneration plant was built west of Thompsonville. This would become an important customer many years later.

In 1997 a trash burning plant was built northwest of Thompsonville at Weldon. They burned 500 tons a day, seven days a week. The intent was to barge trash from WI to Elberta and truck it to the plant. However, due to both residential and political resistance it was defeated. However, at the time trash from Canada was allowed and soon about 35 cars a week of trash was being shipped in from Toronto and burned here. The car shipment usually arrived six cars six days a week. So early in the week there would be about 12 cars for delivery and then five the rest.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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With the addition of the trash burning plant total carloads per year averaged between 5,000-7,000. The three major customers were Koch Refineries (outbound asphalt), Weldon Incinerator (inbound trash) and Sargent Sand (outbound foundry sand). A wood log transload had been established at Elberta where Michigan logs would be transload to barge and shipped to paper mills along Lake Michigan. An average of two to four bulkhead flat cars would be shuttled from points on TSBY along their Northern lines. But this business succumbed to trucks within a year and discontinued within five years. No other customers surfaced during this time.

A third engine was acquired in 1987 from TSBY. It was in an accident and was going to be stored for parts. F&SE acquired it and had it rebuilt to GP38m standards.
Owner: Frankfort & Southeastern 387
Model: EMD GP35 Built As: AA 387 (GP35)
Serial Number: 28993 Order No: 7712
Frame Number: 7712-3 Built: 3/1964
Notes: Acquired from TSBY in 1997
Other locos with this serial: TSBY 387(GP35) AA 387(GP35)
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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The track was upgraded to 25 mph by reinvestment and government grants and loans.

In 2004 the Koch asphalt tank farm in Elberta closed due to local residential pressure and their government support. There was a constant asphalt odor in the air that could be smelled on the Frankfort side (which was heavy on tourism) which led to its demise. This was a huge loss of 2,700-4,000 cars annually.

In 2007 the Weldon Trash Incinerator was closed, for the same reasons as the asphalt tank farm, which was a loss of 1,450-1,800 carloads annually.

F&SE had tried several transloading operations but all failed to be sustained and went back to trucks.

Service was reduced to two times per week with the original two GP38m's. The ex-TSBY engine was stored serviceable. All track work was put on hold.

This left Sargent Sand as the only customer who was shipping 1,050-1,400 cars a year of foundry sand to Ford plants. However, by 2009 Ford's foundry sand business dried up which left F&SE with no customers.

Entering 2010 F&SE had no customers and bills to pay. It looked bleak.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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In 2010 Sargent Sand landed a contract to provide foundry sand to Waupaca Foundry's locations in Etowah TN, Tell City IN and Lawrenceville PA. Each plant will receive 10-16 cars per week. The CR covered hoppers were nearing the end of their life cycle and would need rehabbing to continue in service. F&SE decided to scrap the ex-CR covered hoppers and acquire 100 ex-MKT 40' center flows. The center flows were built in 1985, could carry 104 tons of sand and maxed out at 263,000 lbs. Sargent was typically switched three times per week and would take 10-16 cars each time to Yuma to interchange with GLC (who acquired TSBY in 2006).
Image

The 100 ex-MKT center flows were not meeting the two week cycles to keep up with Waupaca Foundry's production. It was taking closer to three weeks to make the rounds trip. So 50 ex-C&NW 40' center flows were acquired to supplement them. They were built in 1976, could carry 100 tons of sand and maxed out at 263,000 lbs.
Image

The Elberta Yard and available sidings were used for car storage which provided some additional revenue.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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Between the sand business (31-47 cars per week) and storage car business F&SE was not sustainable. A Rails to Trails group had been seeking the F&SE ROW since 2007. TSBY was making a pitch to Sargent to transload their sand at Yuma (Fairmont Minerals was the operator of Yuma and had lost the last of its Ford foundry sand contract in 2011 and was shipping a fraction of the sand it used too). These threats were serious, and the investors of F&SE had to make tough decisions about the future.

Good fortune came F&SE way in 2013 when Sargent Sand decided to get into the fracking sand business. The gas and oil business were taking off in various regions in the east, south and Midwest, and Sargent was willing to invest in the Harlan site which had at a minimum 20-year life left in it. Also, it was an inland mine which was favored over beach front mines. By early 2013 Sargent had added fracking sand to it menu and was shipping 30-50 cars a week to locations in OH and PA on the W&LE (via GLC-AA). A group of 100 lease 2-bay center flows were used for this service. These cars could carry 116 tons of sand and were rated for 286,000 lbs. However, until F&SE could upgrade its track between Yuma and Harlan (about 10 miles) they had to limit the loading to 100 tons.
Image

For the first time since Sargent opened the Harlan sand mine in 1980, they were reaching peak operational efficiency and nearly 100% of the production was going out by rail (up to 95 cars per week). Roughly half of the production was foundry sand for the three Waupaca plants in Etowah TN, Tell City IN and Lawrenceville PA. Roughly the other half went to a pair of transload sites on the W&LE (one in OH and the other PA) to service the gas and oil industries.

Sargent was switched three times a week. Once a week a block of 31-47 cars of foundry sand would be taken to Yuma and interchanged with GLC. The other two times blocks of 15-25 cars of fracking sand were interchanged the same way. At Yuma, Fairmont was trying to break into the fracking sand business to with mixed results. Sometimes they would load up to 75 cars a week and others 0. At times when Yuma was loading the exchange between F&SE and GLC would take place on the siding southeast of the plant. This siding was built specifically to interchange cars between the two railroads.

With the sand business and storage car business F&SE was paying its bills again but not earning enough to reinvest in the railroad the way it needed to upgrade to 286,000 lbs cars.

Do you recall when the Weldon Cogeneration plant was built?
AARR wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:09 pm
In 1993 a waste-wood burning cogeneration plant was built west of Thompsonville. This would become an important customer many years later.
In 2016 another break came F&SE way when the Weldon Cogeneration plant received permission to burn railroad ties. Their contract would allow them to burn 60% wood ties (in addition to the local scrap and waste wood they burn). This would amount to 24-36 cars per week of old railroad ties. The ties would be unloaded at the former trash burning plant and trucked a very short distance to the plant.

By the end of 2016 car counts were now at 87-131 per week. Operations was three times per week and there were times all three engines were needed.

But it would be a bittersweet time because the line from the Waldon Cogeneration plant to the end of the line in Elberta was officially abandoned and removed. There had not been any revenue business since the asphalt terminal closed about 10-12 years earlier. The Betsie Valley Trailway group had been working to get this segment converted to a bike path. The new end of line for F&SE would be east of Homestead, milepost 277.4.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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By 2017 all three engines future needed to be addressed. It had been 25 years since they were rebuilt. Due to a couple of very slow years when they were used sparingly, they had exceeded their useful life age. After evaluating options, including acquiring different engines, such as 38-2's, it was decided that the two ex-SOU engines would be retained but the ex-TSBY engine would be retired, scrapped and replaced. The reason was the line was relatively hilly and the dynamic brake features were considered a value added. 2647 and 2674 have dynamic brakes. 387 did not have dynamic brakes. There was no deadline on when 387 would meet its demise but would continue on in operation until it suffered a mechanical failure.

2647 and 2674 would be overhauled and given a slight cosmetic appearance change. In place of the two 48" and one 36" radiator fans would be two 48" fans spaced right next to each other, like a 38-2. The long hood radiator grill would be patched to equal the distance of the two fans, again like a 38-2.

The track needed to be addressed to. Due to deferred maintenance the speed limit had been reduced to 10 mph while the load limit remained at 263,000 lbs cars. The 10-12 miles of track from Yuma to Harlan would need to be upgraded to 286,000 lbs cars to keep the sand business which faced pressures from both shipping ports and trucks. The tracks west of Harlan to Thompsonville (Waldon) could remain at 263,000 lbs standards which was fine for the 24-36 cars of gondolas with old railroad ties that would use it during the week. With the revenue stream from nearly 100 cars a week of sand business and government grants the track between Yuma and Harlan was upgraded by 2020 (GLC's track from Yuma to Cadillac was already rated at 25 mph and 286,000 lbs cars). The pace to restore a higher speed limit west of Harlan was slower. Operating three days a week left room in the schedule when work could not be completed in a single day and derailments were few due to the slower speeds.

Around 2020 it was clear that the sand mine at Yuma would be abandoned. Several more attempts to restore fracking sand service failed and Fairmont was starting to disassemble and remove its equipment. GLC approached F&SE about sharing in the costs of maintaining the line between Yuma and Cadillac (about 24 miles). After several discussions there was a major change when F&SE agreed to acquire the segment outright and take on full responsibility. The line was in very good condition (25 mph and 286,000 lbs cars). There were several sidings for car storage (which continued to be a source of revenue for F&SE) and one of F&SE principals had an idea to re-establish car loadings at Yuma.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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AARR wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:25 pm
...but the ex-TSBY engine would be retired, scrapped and replaced.
In 2019 F&SE acquired a SD35m from CSX's junk line. Somehow it had sat there for almost 20 years and escaped CSX management's attention. The price was low and GLC has the knowledge and experience to rebuild it at the right price. By mid 2020 it was in service. Shortly after GP35m 387 was officially retired and scrapped.
Owner: Frankfort & Southeastern 2421
Model: Rebuilt EMD SD35M Built As: LN 1218 (SD35)
Serial Number: 30450 Order No: 5690
Frame Number: 5690-8 Built: 6/1965
Notes: Rebuilt SD35M. Acquired in 2019.
Other locos with this serial: CSX 2421(SD35M) L&N 1218(SD35)
Image
AARR wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:25 pm
After several discussions there was a major change when F&SE agreed to acquire the segment outright and take on full responsibility. The line was in very good condition (25 mph and 286,000 lbs cars). There were several sidings for car storage (which continued to be a source of revenue for F&SE) and one of F&SE principals had an idea to re-establish car loadings at Yuma.
By mid 2021 F&SE took over ownership of the line from Cadillac to Yuma. The new interchange point was Cadillac. The line from Cadillac to Harlan was rated at 25 mph and 286,000 lbs cars. West of Harlan to Elberta was rated at 10 mph and 263,000 lbs. cars but that segment was being slowly upgraded. Annual carload traffic was 4,618-6,718. Operations was three times per week however, often, due to slow speeds west of Harlan, the crew would DOH and the train would need to be dog-catches the following day and returned to Elberta.

Both Sargent and Weldon Cogeneration were stable, but it's also a threat with only the two because if one goes down the railroad immediately is unprofitable. F&SE managed to persuade Halliburton, the former owner of the Yuma sand operations but had since closed and moved out, to send its fracking sand from WI to Yuma to transload into trucks for local delivery. The gas and oil business in MI is booming and the need for fracking sand is high. Fairmont had tried this before around 2015 sending a block or two of 20 cars to Yuma but it ended up going back to ship/barge/trucks. The difference this time is the 286,000 cars and 100 car unit trains make the move more competitive. To start 9-13 100 car unit trains will be shipped annually on CN-GLC-F&SE. The cars will be docked at Yuma, unloaded into covered storage and returned to GLC in 24 hours. GLC is committed to returning the sand cars back to CN in 48 hours.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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Currently, F&SE's entire sand car fleet has been retired/scrapped. All outbound foundry and fracking sand are loaded into leased 2-bay center flows and covered hoppers cars rated for 286,000 lbs. Old railroad ties arrive at a rate of 27-36 per week in 263,000 lbs cars. Inbound sand to Yuma arrives in modern short 2-bay center flows and covered hoppers lettered for CN, WC and leased cars (GATX).

F&SE may be close to landing a methanol transload company. The gas and oil industry continues to need more resources and F&SE is right in the territory where it is needed. Wexford, at the old trash burning site, where the siding is still in place, would be a great location for loads in and empties out.

Carloads forecasted for 2022 will be somewhere between 5,450-7,966. F&SE is financially strong with the ability to reinvest (ex. upgrade the ROW west of Harlan) and earn a profit.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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F&SE partners with GLC and the Steam Railroading Institute on occasional excursions. Up until 2004 the Pere Marquette, 2-8-4, 1224, was able to travel all the way to Elberta. It was a popular trip and heavily attended. However, after the asphalt terminal closed and F&SE had to defer maintenance west of Harlan 1224 has not been back there since 2006.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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This is a late report but in August NS1066, the NYC heritage unit and NS1067, the Reading(Bee Line) unit, delivered a 120-car unit fracking sand train to Halliburton in Yuma. The train was loaded in IL, arrived in Toledo and traveled AA, GLC and F&SE. The 120 cars were unloaded in 24 hours and returned to NS in Toledo. This was an unexpected delivery because CN was supposed to be the originator railroad or sand for Halliburton. The backstory is NS originally was going to deliver this train to CP in KC for a location in TX but was declined by the receiver, so Halliburton made the spot buy for its MI location.

Another unit fracking sand train is expected in early October.

Sargent's in Harlan remains very busy loading 63-95 cars a week of fracking and foundry sand.

Weldon Cogeneration continues to transload 24-36 cars of old-railroad ties per week from the old trash plant spur.

The methanol transload that F&SE was trying to locate in Weldon (Thompsonville) chose another location on GLC instead (Kalkaska) due to better pricing.

All three engines, GP38m's 2647 and 2674, and SD38m 2421, continue to serve the railroad well and are liked by the railroad crews.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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Effective January 1st, 2023, F&SE will be acquired by GLC. The line to Thompsonville remains safe as a used-railroad tie transload will be established there and the sand from Harlan is substantial. After several test runs the inbound frac sand to Yuma stopped and the plant has been dis-assembled. Look for a bi-weekly job out of Cadillac to run to Thompsonville.
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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GLC backed out of the deal because the track west of Sargent Sand in Harlan to the end of the line west of Weldon is only rated for 263,000-pound cars and they do not want to invest in the upgrade.

The only customer west of Harlan is Weldon Cogeneration which receives 24-36 cars per week for old wood ties (mostly NS). They have received permission to increase their burn from 60% to 75%. This could increase carloads to 30-45 cars per week. The value of old wood ties does not require the investment of heavier rail as they travel economically in 90–100-ton cars.

Sargent Sand continues to ship 64-96 cars a week. Half of those are foundry sand and the other half fracking.

Service is twice a week. All three engines (GP38m's 2647 and 2674, and SD38m 2421) are needed to handle the heavy 44-66 car trains all the way to Cadillac.

The sand business alone covers the cost of the entire line, and the old railroad tie business is pure profit. It seems like a weak reason that GLC backed out of the deal, but F&SE ownership is content to hang onto the line and keep operating it. It’s a lost opportunity that the sand mine at Yuma is permanently closed but F&SE is looking for other possible businesses there and elsewhere on the line.
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AARR
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

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A typical day starts at Selma Yard where the engines are parked. The crew reports for duty between 7am and 8am. They must arrange their own cars (GLC does not pre-block them) which takes an hour or two. They depart Cadillac setting out storage cars at Boon (infrequently) and Yuma (Yuma has nearly two miles of unused sidings with a crossover switch near the middle that were once used for the sand business). Afterwards, they head to Harlan and set out sand empties (which must be separated for foundry and fracking business). Sargent will load foundry sand one day and fracking sand the other. When done at Sargent’s, they head to Weldon, run around their train, pick up the empty gondolas and spot the loads. On the way back they pick up sand loads at Sargent and cars in storage at Yuma (frequently). Yuma can consume an hour or two of switching depending on where the cars are in the 100-150 car line. Finally, they go back to Cadillac where they block the cars for GLC. Despite the short 48-mile run it is not unusual for the crew to take up to eight hours to complete their work.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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AARR
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Re: Frankfort & Southeastern (F&SE)

Unread post by AARR »

2023 was a good year with a steady group of cars in storage at Boon and Yuma, Sargent Sand shipped 2,141 cars of foundry sand and 1,830 cars of frack sand and Weldon Cogeneration received 1,508 carloads of used-railroad ties (mostly from NS).

The engines have all been rebuilt within the last eight years and, despite their overall age, run fine. Only routine maintenance will be performed in 2024.

Cars used in sand service are leased by Sargent Sand and were all built between 2010-2015. They are rated at 110 tons and are in good shape.
Image

Bridges and tracks are in good shape and will receive routine maintenance in 2024.

There are no plans for SRI to operate past Cadillac in 2024.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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