Amtrak Service to Toronto

[Standard Railfan]

Apparently Amtrak is planning to re-establish service between Detroit and Toronto. Additional trains between Chicago and Milwaukee are also planned. All of this comes as part of Amtrak’s support for the Canadian Pacific and Kansas City Southern merger.

https://www.mlive.com/news/2022/01/amt ... nsion.html

The Amtrak press release can be found here: https://media.amtrak.com/2022/01/amtra ... mbination/

[David Collins]

Apparently Amtrak is planning to re-establish service between Detroit and Toronto. Additional trains between Chicago and Milwaukee are also planned. All of this comes as part of Amtrak’s support for the Canadian Pacific and Kansas City Southern merger.

https://www.mlive.com/news/2022/01/amt ... nsion.html

The Amtrak press release can be found here: https://media.amtrak.com/2022/01/amtra ... mbination/

As long as the borders stay open, this should be extremely profitable for Amtrak. There are some pros and cons though


Pro: since people in the state have wanted this service to return for awhile, the demand is there, so the route should be very profitable.

Potential BIG Pro: If Amtrak also made a train that originated in Pontiac and made all of it’s BIG Oakland County stops (Troy & Royal Oak), then do a straight shot across the border that could make it 2x more profitable.

BIG con: judging by the traffic volumes CP/KCS is predicting, trains could become very delayed going into the Detroit tunnel.

Possible Solution/Con: Run the train north to Durand and have it turn east to Sarnia, but it would add more time to the trip and you’re at the mercy of CN.

[DaveO]

As long as the borders stay open, this should be extremely profitable for Amtrak. There are some pros and cons though


Pro: since people in the state have wanted this service to return for awhile, the demand is there, so the route should be very profitable.

Potential BIG Pro: If Amtrak also made a train that originated in Pontiac and made all of it’s BIG Oakland County stops (Troy & Royal Oak), then do a straight shot across the border that could make it 2x more profitable.

BIG con: judging by the traffic volumes CP/KCS is predicting, trains could become very delayed going into the Detroit tunnel.

Possible Solution/Con: Run the train north to Durand and have it turn east to Sarnia, but it would add more time to the trip and you’re at the mercy of CN.

Profitable? maybe better to say decent ridership potential.

All the BIG Oakland County stops? There's only 3 and you included all of them!

There are two tunnels under the river. AFAIK they only use the one that was shaved and allows all but 9'6" double stacks to pass through.
Amtrak might be able to use the other. Don't know the clearance on the SuperLiners so they could be an issue in the non-shaved tunnel.
Doubtful there will be any significant increase in CP trains under the river.

You have failed to consider the reputation that Border Patrol has regarding train passengers crossing at Port Huron.
That was part of the reasoning the International was discontinued.
A bigger part was Michigan had to subsidize the train and wanted times convenient for Michigan residents to and from Chicago.

[GP30M4216]

Amtrak and CP's agreement is huge, for a few different reasons. Overall, it establishes a roadmap for real system enhancements for Amtrak - not pie in the sky "aspirations" of 150mph trains, or even trains on routes where the tracks exist but it's just imaginary (Detroit-GR), but real trains, on existing real rails, that the freight carrier has committed to allowing to run. Perhaps CP has recognized that by seriously working with Amtrak to establish or increase service, public dollars can flow which can assist the freight carrier and their capacity, too. I'm really excited to see the second roundtrip between Chicago and the Twin Cities.

But this is big for Chicago-Michigan-Toronto service specifically. I don't think Amtrak would have included this in their agreement if they were not serious about wanting to restart this corridor. The border crossing is the linchpin to the whole thing. The function of the border (Border Control, Inspections, CBP, etc.) but also the physical act of crossing from the USA to Canada and back again. On this route you've only got two potential choices, and Detroit-Windsor is the obvious one. Without the agreement of the tunnel owner, your train just it's going to get there.

There have been some prior discussions about past cross border services and the potential of a new service, and the potential new routings. I think this agreement makes it pretty definitive what Amtrak is planning to do, at least eliminating the border crossing Sarnia/Windsor issue. Some of this past discussion got a bit off the rails, but it might be interesting.

https://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36700
https://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=38023

Cautiously optimistic that there will be progress made here after 14 random studies are completed in the next decade

Also......the Amtrak Oakland County operation could be easily replaced by a commuter train. I know that's a bad phrase in Michigan, but let's be honest, it totally could.

[Saturnalia]

Superliners aren’t actually that tall and definitely will not have issues in the enlarged bore, and may even be able to make the second.

[AARR]

But will there be more passengers with Amtrak's poor on-time arrival record?

[TFace]

But will there be more passengers with Amtrak's poor on-time arrival record?

Almost 7 hours late isn't too late for a real railfan.

[DaveO]

But will there be more passengers with Amtrak's poor on-time arrival record?

Any business that wants to expand should make sure the current business is operating to plan.
Many of the delays aren't the fault of the host railroad, the blame belongs with Amtrak itself.

[David Collins]

But will there be more passengers with Amtrak's poor on-time arrival record?

Any business that wants to expand should make sure the current business is operating to plan.
Many of the delays aren't the fault of the host railroad, the blame belongs with Amtrak itself.

No offense, But that literally makes no sense, unless it’s an equipment failure/breakdown, what would be Amtrak’s fault?

[DaveO]

But will there be more passengers with Amtrak's poor on-time arrival record?

Any business that wants to expand should make sure the current business is operating to plan.
Many of the delays aren't the fault of the host railroad, the blame belongs with Amtrak itself.

No offense, But that literally makes no sense, unless it’s an equipment failure/breakdown, what would be Amtrak’s fault?

Did I write that anything that states that issues caused by the host railroad was the fault of Amtrak? No.
Read more, think more, post less is appropriate here.

[AARR]

I'm interested in what you think Amtrak does that deserves blame.

But will there be more passengers with Amtrak's poor on-time arrival record?

Any business that wants to expand should make sure the current business is operating to plan.
Many of the delays aren't the fault of the host railroad, the blame belongs with Amtrak itself.

[DaveO]

I'm interested in what you think Amtrak does that deserves blame.

But will there be more passengers with Amtrak's poor on-time arrival record?

Any business that wants to expand should make sure the current business is operating to plan.
Many of the delays aren't the fault of the host railroad, the blame belongs with Amtrak itself.

Equipment reliability out of Chicago.
When a train leaves Union Station or Pontiac hours late, that's on Amtrak. And it's not as unusual as it should be.
Some of those delays end causing crew scheduling issues.

[AARR]

Thanks.

I will start reading more carefully Bob Johnson's columns in Trains. It seems he shares your point of view. He also criticizes Amtrak's "cost cutting" measures which affect the comfort of the ride like eliminating a kitchen/cook to prepare fresh food.

I'm interested in what you think Amtrak does that deserves blame.

Any business that wants to expand should make sure the current business is operating to plan.
Many of the delays aren't the fault of the host railroad, the blame belongs with Amtrak itself.

Equipment reliability out of Chicago.
When a train leaves Union Station or Pontiac hours late, that's on Amtrak. And it's not as unusual as it should be.
Some of those delays end causing crew scheduling issues.

[Sean N]

From Crains Detroit

January 07, 2022 12:23 PM 7 HOURS AGO
Amtrak aims for new Detroit-Toronto route

Amtrak plans to expand its service to add a line from Detroit to Toronto.
A proposed agreement between railway operators would create a new passenger train route between Detroit, Windsor and Toronto.

Amtrak has agreed to expand its services as part of Canadian Pacific Railway Limited's acquisition of railroad investment company Kansas City Southern, which offers freight and passenger traffic in the United States and Mexico, according to a Thursday news release.

Amtrak, the Washington, D.C.-based passenger train operator that stops in Michigan cities including Grand Rapids, East Lansing, Ann Arbor and Detroit, will expand its routes in the Midwest and South under its agreement to use more of Canadian Pacific's rail lines. Canadian Pacific is mostly a freight railway.

Canadian Pacific and Amtrak plan to start up passenger service through a rail tunnel under the Detroit River, connecting Michigan stops directly with Windsor and Toronto, and then to other Canadian cities through Rail Canada.


Amtrak will also increase frequency between Chicago and Milwaukee, and Milwaukee and St. Paul, Minn.

The plan can only move forward once Canadian Pacific gets approval for its $27 billion Kansas City Southern deal from the federal Surface Transportation Board. It would create the first unified rail network stretching from Canada to Mexico.

There's a lack of public transit between Detroit and Canada, despite the proximity. Transit Windsor does have a small bus route that goes through the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel, but service has been suspended "until further notice" due to the COVID-19 pandemic, according to the city of Windsor's website.

— Bloomberg contributed to this report.

[ConrailDetr​oit]

He also criticizes Amtrak's "cost cutting" measures which affect the comfort of the ride like eliminating a kitchen/cook to prepare fresh food.

Aside from personal medical and criminality reasons and given the two major pros of flying; faster travel time and usual cheaper priced than the train, Amtrak must be superb with its hospitality to incentive a prospective customer to want to pay more and take longer to reach their destination, regardless of how scenic the route is. Convenience priced, mediocre quality, microwaved, preprocessed meals is not superb hospitality in any food service operation and is a lose-lose business model and a reason not to spend the extra time and money to reach a destination.

Does the Empire Builder or any long distance routes still have a skilled food service technician in charge of preparing meal in the dining car?

[DaveO]

I will start reading more carefully Bob Johnson's columns in Trains. It seems he shares your point of view. He also criticizes Amtrak's "cost cutting" measures which affect the comfort of the ride like eliminating a kitchen/cook to prepare fresh food.

I had come across somebody's online musings wondering if Chicago/Beech Grove are the red headed stepchild of Wilmington/Bear.
It's something that seems to me to have some truth to it.

[LansingRailFan]

I'm interested in what you think Amtrak does that deserves blame.

Any business that wants to expand should make sure the current business is operating to plan.
Many of the delays aren't the fault of the host railroad, the blame belongs with Amtrak itself.

Equipment reliability out of Chicago.
When a train leaves Union Station or Pontiac hours late, that's on Amtrak. And it's not as unusual as it should be.
Some of those delays end causing crew scheduling issues.

Between this board and the Facebook groups alerting me to almost constant delays I’d never ride Amtrak out of Michigan anywhere lol

[Ypsi]

Potential BIG Pro: If Amtrak also made a train that originated in Pontiac and made all of it’s BIG Oakland County stops (Troy & Royal Oak), then do a straight shot across the border that could make it 2x more profitable.

Possible Solution/Con: Run the train north to Durand and have it turn east to Sarnia, but it would add more time to the trip and you’re at the mercy of CN.

The big pro doesn’t make sense because there are not many existing riders north of Detroit. These riders are also within a reasonable driving distance of DER or DET making it not ideal to skip the actual large stops on this route like KAL or ARB. See research with population and ridership data and sources) in this thread:

https://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... l&start=20

That thread also address why you would never ever put this train off the AML and up to the flint sub. Time matters. That would waste a lot of time for not a lot of people.

Superliners aren’t actually that tall and definitely will not have issues in the enlarged bore, and may even be able to make the second.

Superliners don’t go 110, which from what I understand is one of the main reasons we don’t see them in winter anymore. It is likely if this service came back it would be 110mph capiable equipment.

[Saturnalia]

@Ypsi yes the Superliners are only good for 90 MPH - my comment was only in reference to vertical clearance because of the question raised, not necessarily other limitations over the rest of the route.