CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Anything pertaining to railfanning in Michigan.
GTWChris
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 2982
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:42 pm

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by GTWChris »

Steve B wrote:Which agency does the investigation and report-- NTSB or Transport Canada-- depends on whether the accident started in Ontario or Michigan. This isn't clear yet, or at least hasn't been made public.
I believe TSB is the lead agency.

Looking like sometime this weekend for reopening.

User avatar
12Bridge
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Lake Wazapamani

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by 12Bridge »

Is there even an investigation? I thought they only did those if there was loss of life or a significant environmental oops.

Super Chief
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1191
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Three Rivers, Mi.--Indian Rocks Beach,Fl.

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by Super Chief »

I believe the above poster meant STB not TSB? Also there should be an investigation as sulfuric acid in that amount is not a minor thing. Things change so fast in todays world, electric cars, driverless trucks, Boeing software and DPUs, one should step back and analyze each accident as more are on the horizon. Remember the placard misplacment on all the shale oil cars, I called the FRA and said as a 1st responder we need to know what were up against and the placards are wrong in North Dakota that there putting on the cars. $9000 fine per car was implemented.

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by chapmaja »

TSB - Canada would be correct. This is the Transportation Safety Board (TSB) would handle the investigation as this train was leaving Canada and had not yet entered the USA completely.

Steve B
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:03 pm
Location: East Lansing

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by Steve B »

I didn't notice it until now; the Port Huron Times Herald said two days ago that "officials have ruled it happened on the Sarnia, Ontario side."

hoborich
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 2992
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:05 am
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by hoborich »

They dragged the DPU out at some point Monday afternoon, from what was posted on Facebook.
So, there is no crew or engineer on the DPUs?
"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a TV commercial is right for you".

User avatar
Saturnalia
Authority on Cat
Posts: 15385
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm
Location: Michigan City, IN
Contact:

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by Saturnalia »

hoborich wrote:
They dragged the DPU out at some point Monday afternoon, from what was posted on Facebook.
So, there is no crew or engineer on the DPUs?
Distributed Power Units are not manned, they are radio-controlled from the lead locomotive. This is the distinction from the manned helper locomotives of yore. DPUs are generally intended to stay on for the entire run of the train from origin to destination, rather than just over a certain segment of the road as is typical with manned helpers.

A few more notes on the discussion above:

As far as losing communication with the DPU, I'd imagine CN has installed repeater antennas inside the tunnel to handle DPU, EOT and PTC communications. Most tunnels of that sorta length get that treatment, and I'd imagine due to the sag in the tunnel it would be even more necessary.

It does sound like Canada will lead the investigation due to the point of derailment determined to be on the Canadian side of the border, NOT because the train hadn't made it 100% into the US yet.

As for not allowing DPUs in the tunnel due to the grade, that's kinda absurd. DPUs are usually added specifically to help longer trains tackle grades and curves. Running 12000' manifests in the tunnel would probably be more difficult without DPUs than with them.

<begin speculation>
The primary issue running long trains through the tunnel, and potential cause of the wreck, is the play in slack, whereas the train is stretched coming out of the tunnel but bunched up going in. Traditionally crews would probably have used the "stretch-braking" technique with a slight brake pipe reduction to keep the train all stretched out by slightly applying the brakes throughout the train. But with the DPU involved, they likely keep the DPU in dynamic braking until it reaches the bottom of the tunnel, thereby keeping the train stretched out, as the headend would begin pulling somewhere around the bottom of the tunnel. These are my presumptions, I should add, I have never spoken with anybody who has operated a train through this particular tunnel.

Thus, it is possible that the engineer flubbed up the coordination between the headend and DPU power. Perhaps this caused a pull-apart, and subsequent collision inside the tunnel, as the headend (going uphill) would slow down faster than the still-descending rear-end. A hit at high enough speed could cause cars to derail, and it would be on from there.

Other causes could lie in track conditions, a mechanical failure such as a broken wheel, or the aforementioned failure of DPU communication inside the tunnel.
<end speculation>
Thornapple River Rail Series - YouTube
Safety today is your investment for tomorrow

User avatar
12Bridge
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Lake Wazapamani

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by 12Bridge »

Let thy railfan speculation begin.

GreatLakesRailfan
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 4828
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:28 am
Location: Marysville, Michigan

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by GreatLakesRailfan »

Super Chief wrote:I believe the above poster meant STB not TSB?
I wrote TSB. The lead agency hadn't been announced (to my knowledge) when I wrote the post. It was just a guess, personally I'd much rather see the NTSB conduct the investigation.

Considering how much damage there is on the other side of the river, I'll be greatly surprised if the Americans are allowed to do the investigation.

On a completely unrelated subject, does anyone know if the price of scrap is higher or lower in Canada than the US this week?


I'm not sure how stretch braking plays into things in the tunnel, but the general theory is that as the back half of the train goes into the tunnel, it's pushing the front half of the train up/out of the tunnel. It's not uncommon to hear the slack run in as a westbound train is slowing down to stop on the west end of the yard.

Outside of the DPU use, I've heard a couple engineers talk about using a steady speed for the entire trip through the tunnel lately. Essentially they don't cross 16th Street at track speed and slow to a stop over the next mile and a half, which I believe puts additional stress on the equipment. Instead it's supposed to be a more controlled movement, with less overall speed changes. It's been a while since I heard about it, but at the time it sounded like it was a new idea around here.
~ Charles W.

chapmaja
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by chapmaja »

GreatLakesRailfan wrote:
Super Chief wrote:I believe the above poster meant STB not TSB?
I wrote TSB. The lead agency hadn't been announced (to my knowledge) when I wrote the post. It was just a guess, personally I'd much rather see the NTSB conduct the investigation.

Considering how much damage there is on the other side of the river, I'll be greatly surprised if the Americans are allowed to do the investigation.

On a completely unrelated subject, does anyone know if the price of scrap is higher or lower in Canada than the US this week?


I'm not sure how stretch braking plays into things in the tunnel, but the general theory is that as the back half of the train goes into the tunnel, it's pushing the front half of the train up/out of the tunnel. It's not uncommon to hear the slack run in as a westbound train is slowing down to stop on the west end of the yard.

Outside of the DPU use, I've heard a couple engineers talk about using a steady speed for the entire trip through the tunnel lately. Essentially they don't cross 16th Street at track speed and slow to a stop over the next mile and a half, which I believe puts additional stress on the equipment. Instead it's supposed to be a more controlled movement, with less overall speed changes. It's been a while since I heard about it, but at the time it sounded like it was a new idea around here.

I wonder if speed through the tunnel will be related to the work that's going to be done on the west end of the yard with the crossovers and connections. Could the changes being implemented around Port Huron be related to concerns CN had over the operations through the tunnel. They were trying to change things on the west end of the yard to prevent something like this from happening, but it happened first.

GreatLakesRailfan
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 4828
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:28 am
Location: Marysville, Michigan

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by GreatLakesRailfan »

Changes at the west end of the yard would be related to operations. They added a bunch of lights and upgraded a couple yard tracks supposedly to improve something relating to a traffic pattern that was supposed to change, but I don't know exactly what it was. If trains have the ability to cross over further from the yard (i.e. down by the current Range Road crossing, it will probably make pick ups and set outs easier to accomplish without blocking all of the mains, as is sometimes currently the case.

There are very few trains that are allowed to run straight into the tunnel without stopping in Port Huron, but I think that relates to the conditions in the yard in Sarnia. Trains that have to do work in Sarnia, or that terminate in Sarnia, have to get permission from the yard before they can go across the river. Trains coming from Sarnia have to clear US Customs before they can depart to the west or the south, which usually requires a stop. I can't see how the changes on the other side of the yard would directly influence a derailment in the tunnel. They have broken knuckles in the tunnel on a fairly regular basis, and drawbar issues on a slightly less regular basis. It makes sense that a derailment could occur in the tunnel. From what I understand, the DPU made the wreck much worse that it would have been, but that doesn't mean that a derailment would not have happened.
~ Charles W.

railrod1949
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:19 am
Location: Waterford, MI

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by railrod1949 »

GreatLakesRailfan wrote:Changes at the west end of the yard would be related to operations. They added a bunch of lights and upgraded a couple yard tracks supposedly to improve something relating to a traffic pattern that was supposed to change, but I don't know exactly what it was. If trains have the ability to cross over further from the yard (i.e. down by the current Range Road crossing, it will probably make pick ups and set outs easier to accomplish without blocking all of the mains, as is sometimes currently the case.

There are very few trains that are allowed to run straight into the tunnel without stopping in Port Huron, but I think that relates to the conditions in the yard in Sarnia. Trains that have to do work in Sarnia, or that terminate in Sarnia, have to get permission from the yard before they can go across the river. Trains coming from Sarnia have to clear US Customs before they can depart to the west or the south, which usually requires a stop. I can't see how the changes on the other side of the yard would directly influence a derailment in the tunnel. They have broken knuckles in the tunnel on a fairly regular basis, and drawbar issues on a slightly less regular basis. It makes sense that a derailment could occur in the tunnel. From what I understand, the DPU made the wreck much worse that it would have been, but that doesn't mean that a derailment would not have happened.
All CN RR freight trains stops in Port Huron or Sarnia to change crews since they are Port Huron based. That freight train that derailed in the tunnel this past Friday morning were operated by a London, ON train and engine crew.

User avatar
12Bridge
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Lake Wazapamani

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by 12Bridge »

railrod1949 wrote: All CN RR freight trains stops in Port Huron or Sarnia to change crews since they are Port Huron based. That freight train that derailed in the tunnel this past Friday morning were operated by a London, ON train and engine crew.
Not true. Pretty common to have trains go through to Sarnia. Battle Creek crews do it often.

User avatar
Saturnalia
Authority on Cat
Posts: 15385
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm
Location: Michigan City, IN
Contact:

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by Saturnalia »

12Bridge wrote:
railrod1949 wrote: All CN RR freight trains stops in Port Huron or Sarnia to change crews since they are Port Huron based. That freight train that derailed in the tunnel this past Friday morning were operated by a London, ON train and engine crew.
Not true. Pretty common to have trains go through to Sarnia. Battle Creek crews do it often.
What's the protocol for crews crossing the border? Are they sent right back to the other side?
Thornapple River Rail Series - YouTube
Safety today is your investment for tomorrow

JoJames
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 733
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:21 pm
Location: Hamler Ohio

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by JoJames »

Not sure about Canada but when a derailment has more than $10,000.00 in the states lots of federal agencies become involved.

Super Chief
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1191
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Three Rivers, Mi.--Indian Rocks Beach,Fl.

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by Super Chief »

In the end this is an expensive lesson for CN on how DPUs can't be utilized. Operations should have never even thought about radio-controlled units working in underground situations as there's no fail safe method unless I'm missing something that the DPU shuts down if radio signal is gone from head end. If such a system is in place it didn't work or was bypassed. Sulfuric acid can't be mixed with water and with that quanity leaking their lucky an explosion had they mixed would have blown out both sides of the tunnel.

Mike H
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:50 pm
Location: Vicksburg, Michigan
Contact:

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by Mike H »

You are making a lot of very unfair assumptions. No one knows the cause of the derailment yet & it's probably more like than not that the DP unit had absolutely nothing to do with the derailment. CN has been running DP through the tunnel for a couple years now, (I would be one who would actually know, rather than all the railfan speculation taking place here) & if this had been a problem with DP units as you are assuming this issue would have been found out fairly quickly once they started testing the concept. The first time a unit lost link everyone would have been all over it. Don't forget that railroads all over the country run DP through tunnels, around mountains & in many other places where the link can be lost, but yet you don't see those train piling up because of a lost link.

It's probably better to get the facts before making wild assumptions & pointing the finger......

Mike H

Steve B
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:03 pm
Location: East Lansing

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by Steve B »

https://blackburnnews.com/sarnia/sarnia ... continues/

Up to 9 cars remain in tunnel as of this morning. Does anyone know if the Windsor detours use the CP from the tunnel to the CN connecting spur to the VIA line, or if they go down the CASO remnant to Pelton, then up the old C&O to the east side?

User avatar
12Bridge
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Lake Wazapamani

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by 12Bridge »

Mike H wrote:You are making a lot of very unfair assumptions. No one knows the cause of the derailment yet & it's probably more like than not that the DP unit had absolutely nothing to do with the derailment. CN has been running DP through the tunnel for a couple years now, (I would be one who would actually know, rather than all the railfan speculation taking place here) & if this had been a problem with DP units as you are assuming this issue would have been found out fairly quickly once they started testing the concept. The first time a unit lost link everyone would have been all over it. Don't forget that railroads all over the country run DP through tunnels, around mountains & in many other places where the link can be lost, but yet you don't see those train piling up because of a lost link.

It's probably better to get the facts before making wild assumptions & pointing the finger......

Mike H
Image

PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1368
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: CN Derailment in Port Huron Tunnel

Unread post by PatAzo »

Attempting to deduce what occurred (speculation) can be interesting. You test your reasoning powers and knowledge of the industry. There is nothing wrong with it. Aside from being a train with DPU is there anything pointing to DPU causing the derailment vs. another cause?

Sulfuric acid can be combined with water. It's important how you combine them. It's an exothermic reaction and can cause the liquid to boil.

Post Reply