First look at the new Siemens coaches

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First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby NSSD70ACe » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:31 pm

California DOT released a PDF containing the first look of what Siemens has designed for the single level coaches and cab cars that will be used both here in the Midwest and the West Coast. Production is supposed to start this summer (at least for CA cars).

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/transprog/ctcb ... ailcar.pdf

One thing I noticed is that it doesn't appear that the coaches have the Dutch-style doors that the current cars have. Will this be an issue for conductors during arrivals and departures?
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby SD80MAC » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:16 am

I like how the cab cars look just like the Chargers, that will make for a nice looking train set. As far as the dutch doors go, maybe that will be addressed before production?

Also, does anyone know if these cars are going to be able to be hauled by older locomotives? I've seen quite a few comments around the net saying they are only able to be coupled to the Chargers. Seems shortsighted and inflexible?
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby hoborich » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:38 pm

Seems shortsighted and inflexible?


Not if you are trying to sell them a couple spare locos. :lol:
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby PerRock » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:20 pm

SD80MAC wrote:Also, does anyone know if these cars are going to be able to be hauled by older locomotives? I've seen quite a few comments around the net saying they are only able to be coupled to the Chargers. Seems shortsighted and inflexible?


Why would they not be able to? The Chargers can haul existing cars, so the couplers, electrics, etc would all be the same.

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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby SD80MAC » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:25 am

You would think so, but I’ve seen several comments to the contrary.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby DaveO » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:10 pm

But you know that the Chargers are out there today with tightlock couplers hauling the various Amtrak cars.

For that rumor to be true, California, Washington and the Midwest groups would all have to remove the current tightlock couplers that are on the Chargers.
Then they would have to pay to retrofit them with the rumored incompatible coupler.

What isn't a rumor is that the Brightline Chargers use a non-standard type of coupling on the rear to connect with the Brightline Siemens built cars which are semi-permanently coupled together.

But that's only the Brightline engines and cars. Nobody else's.

What makes a viral rumor? Something that has a little bit of fact to hide the loads of wild conjecture.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby SousaKerry » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:10 pm

Not only all that but they would also have to be hauled in by flat car or by truck as they would not be interchangeable on the US rail system. That is not a small shipping bill to add on at the end of the order.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby Saturnalia » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:26 pm

SousaKerry wrote:Not only all that but they would also have to be hauled in by flat car or by truck as they would not be interchangeable on the US rail system. That is not a small shipping bill to add on at the end of the order.

There have been cases where equipment with non-standard couplers has been moved, either with temporary standard couplers or non-standard couplers on spacer cars.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby DaveO » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:39 pm

Saturnalia wrote:
SousaKerry wrote:Not only all that but they would also have to be hauled in by flat car or by truck as they would not be interchangeable on the US rail system. That is not a small shipping bill to add on at the end of the order.

There have been cases where equipment with non-standard couplers has been moved, either with temporary standard couplers or non-standard couplers on spacer cars.


This link was how the BLE advised their members about doing the delivery of the Brightline trainsets.

http://blet5.com/2016/12/10/brightline-trains/
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby GreatLakesRailfan » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:29 am

Saturnalia wrote:
SousaKerry wrote:Not only all that but they would also have to be hauled in by flat car or by truck as they would not be interchangeable on the US rail system. That is not a small shipping bill to add on at the end of the order.

There have been cases where equipment with non-standard couplers has been moved, either with temporary standard couplers or non-standard couplers on spacer cars.


Metra's new electric equipment was built in Rochelle and moved over UP to delivery. A pair of flat cars with conversion couplers (one standard coupler and one specialty coupler) were placed on either end of each pair, allowing a standard freight locomotive to move the cars east for delivery. I doubt it would be that difficult to rig up something similar to deliver the Brightline cars.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby SousaKerry » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:08 am

I stand corrected.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby GP30M4216 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:45 am

One thing I noticed is that it doesn't appear that the coaches have the Dutch-style doors that the current cars have. Will this be an issue for conductors during arrivals and departures?


Only the Horizon equipment (and some elder Heritage cars, all now retired) run with "Dutch" style split doors. Superliners have hinged doors that open in. Amtrak Amfleets and even Via Renaissance equipment both have full-height, sliding doors. Each may have its own issues, but I think the doors proposed on the Siemens coaches will work fine.

Does anyone think that's a baggage compartment on the cab car between the cab section and the seating section? It would be nice to have that service return to Michigan service trains.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby PerRock » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:34 pm

GP30M4216 wrote:Does anyone think that's a baggage compartment on the cab car between the cab section and the seating section? It would be nice to have that service return to Michigan service trains.


I'm leaning towards "no." Namely because there are vents in the roof above that section. If I had to guess it's some sort of electronics room, maybe a HEP generator or stuff to do with PTC systems. I could see it also being a regenerative braking system that feeds power back into the HEP system.

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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby DaveO » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:36 pm

I came across this powerpoint presentation about the new Siemens cars

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/NGEC_annual%20meeting%202018_CALIDOT%20presentation.pptx

In summary, California will use 7 car(including cab) sets that are semi-permanently coupled. Similar to Brightline.
The end car will have a type H coupler to couple to the engine.

The IDOT/Midwest will be a little more complicated. There will be coaches with type H couplers at both ends.
Then there will also be some semi-permanently coupled car pairs. Some coach-cafe and some coach-business/economy(do they mean coach?) pairs.
There will be a type H coupler at each end of the semi-coupled pair.
No cab cars because ideally there will be a Charger at each end.

I know the Siemens cars are based on their European cars. But while the semi-coupled pairs bring some advantages in handling...
I have to wonder about what happens when one of the pair get bad ordered. Is the luxury there of having a perfectly good car out of service while the other gets fixed?
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby NSSD70ACe » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:33 am

DaveO wrote:I came across this powerpoint presentation about the new Siemens cars

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/NGEC_annual%20meeting%202018_CALIDOT%20presentation.pptx

In summary, California will use 7 car(including cab) sets that are semi-permanently coupled. Similar to Brightline.
The end car will have a type H coupler to couple to the engine.

The IDOT/Midwest will be a little more complicated. There will be coaches with type H couplers at both ends.
Then there will also be some semi-permanently coupled car pairs. Some coach-cafe and some coach-business/economy(do they mean coach?) pairs.
There will be a type H coupler at each end of the semi-coupled pair.
No cab cars because ideally there will be a Charger at each end.

I know the Siemens cars are based on their European cars. But while the semi-coupled pairs bring some advantages in handling...
I have to wonder about what happens when one of the pair get bad ordered. Is the luxury there of having a perfectly good car out of service while the other gets fixed?



I like the look of the IDOT cars. Very sleek and modern.

As for the potential issues stated above:

I'm sure that IDOT and other parties are working to be sure that there are contingency plans in place for that eventuality. My guess is that IDOT will purchase enough sets to have a backup plan in the event of a bad order.

Additionally, I wonder why they put the cafe car as primarily a married pair with a coach car instead of just making the cafe all single cars. It seems like making the cafes single would offer additional flexibility in case one part of the set gets bad-ordered. As it stands now, if the cafe gets bad-ordered, you're taking a coach out too, meaning you have to replace the cafe and then find a single coach as well. That's drawing two cars out of your reserves instead of one.

I'm sure IDOT has good logic behind this particular setup, so I'll leave the decision-making to them until I finish my degree. :lol:
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby PerRock » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:32 pm

Usually with married pairs or semi-married pairs. You can still uncouple them, it's just more difficult than traditional couplers. Often requiring use of a shop. So with a bad order, it would be possible to swap out one of the two cars in the married pair.

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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby Schteinkuh » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:41 pm

GreatLakesRailfan wrote:Metra's new electric equipment was built in Rochelle and moved over UP to delivery. A pair of flat cars with conversion couplers (one standard coupler and one specialty coupler) were placed on either end of each pair, allowing a standard freight locomotive to move the cars east for delivery. I doubt it would be that difficult to rig up something similar to deliver the Brightline cars.

Sure, but the second that Charger does a classic lock-an-axle on a double track main with 3 priority trains behind it, they're gonna wish they had standard couplers.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby MSchwiebert » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:43 pm

Perhaps the Michigan line will get high level platforms?

GP30M4216 wrote:
One thing I noticed is that it doesn't appear that the coaches have the Dutch-style doors that the current cars have. Will this be an issue for conductors during arrivals and departures?


Only the Horizon equipment (and some elder Heritage cars, all now retired) run with "Dutch" style split doors. Superliners have hinged doors that open in. Amtrak Amfleets and even Via Renaissance equipment both have full-height, sliding doors. Each may have its own issues, but I think the doors proposed on the Siemens coaches will work fine.

Does anyone think that's a baggage compartment on the cab car between the cab section and the seating section? It would be nice to have that service return to Michigan service trains.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby Ypsi » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:40 pm

MSchwiebert wrote:Perhaps the Michigan line will get high level platforms?


Unlikely because of freight service and some of the current set ups done by Amtrak and NS at ARB and DER. Ann Arbor's high level platform retracts so they freight trains have enough clearance (specifically high wides). This is why the Dearborn station has the removable blocks on track 1. Best bet for long run is to be flexible. Horizon and amfleets can board at a high or low level platform.
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Re: First look at the new Siemens coaches

Unread postby Schteinkuh » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:07 pm

Ypsi wrote:
MSchwiebert wrote:Perhaps the Michigan line will get high level platforms?


Unlikely because of freight service and some of the current set ups done by Amtrak and NS at ARB and DER. Ann Arbor's high level platform retracts so they freight trains have enough clearance (specifically high wides). This is why the Dearborn station has the removable blocks on track 1. Best bet for long run is to be flexible. Horizon and amfleets can board at a high or low level platform.

South Shore has a solution for that....
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