Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

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Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:05 pm

Trying to understand that present operations of this section of line between Delray and West Detroit to undestand it's past. Starting at Delray, who owns the two most western set of tracks up to Livernois Yard? I believe this was the old Wasbash mainline. And then, who owns the single line up to West Detroit? After West Detroit I believe ownership crosses back over to CN, right?

Also, which railroads utilize the two leads into Livernois Yard, the first from the old Wabash mainline/current Shore Line, and the second off the current Conrail Detroit Line directly to the west? I've heard the lead off Conrail Detroit Line - which crosses the Shore Line - can be a major choking point or Amtrak and Canadian National because of the crossover.

I've heard the line I'm refering to as the NS Detroit District, so I figure NS must own the two lines (the western one up to an into the yard and the eastern one up to West Detroit) and then perhaps CSX uses the eastern track lead to access the yard from the Conrail Detroit Line, but I'm not 100% sure. Seems that the Detroit Line and the Shore Line get most of the attention on sites that speak about this area, so I'm not familiar with much of NS's operations north of Delray. Usually, if I see anything beyond Oakdwood or Delray talked about in terms of NS, it's east into its terminal yard or even further up the line to the old boatyard just outside of downtown.

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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby hoborich » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:00 am

Starting at Delray, who owns the two most western set of tracks up to Livernois Yard?

CSX uses it and I believe it's known as the "Industrial. Not sure, but I believe it's all "shared assets" up to Vinewood, where CN gets back on the Shoreline.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:44 am

So then would that mean NS access Livernois Yard from the first western main directly to the east of these two? I'm asking all of this because I feel this map is outdated and/or just wrong in getting the track configuration right in between Delray and West Detroit (i.e. showing double track for the line I'm talking about up to West Detroit when one of the tracks is a lead into the yard, for instance).

Image

It's also my understanding that CN ownership starts and NS ownership ends at West Detroit. I guess using this map, maybe it'd help explain ownership of the four lines pictured in between Delray and West Detroit. This map shows the tracks I'm talking about as being CN (GTW) owned, but I've never seen anyone claim that, and the rest of the site seems to directly contradict this saying that Shore Line ends at West Detroit and doesn't pick back up until after crossing the Rouge River over NS territory.

If CSX utilizes the line I'm talking about to get to Livernois, that'd seem to imply that it's also Conrail's, but nothing I've ever seen or read seems to point in this direction. It'd also mean the lead of the neighboring known Conrail-owned Detroit Line would then be used by NS to get to Livernois, right?
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby AARR » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:02 am

The line between Delray and West Detroit you have marked CN is actually owned by NS IIRC
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby Fred » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:41 am

Yes, the red line between Delray & West Detroit is the old wabash main now NS. The NS has one customer they still service (Cummins & Moore) located between Delray & CP Waterman. The redline that looks like the passing track no longer extends to West Detroit but rather ends just before reaching the Waterman diamond. It now turns into the entrance to the yard where a train can enter the CSXT Van site or Conrail's South Receiving yard.
Almost all CN trains now operate on CR tracks from CP Vinewood to CP YD, very seldom do they operate on the former Wabash line between West Detroit & Delray. Back "in the day" the Shoreline trains did operate exclusively over the old wabash main between Delray & West Detroit before entering GTW trackage.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby M.D.Bentley » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:47 am

The Shoreline sub. single tracks at "Coolidge" towards the NS bridge with a connecting track with the NS at "YD". The CN uses the Detroitline between "YD" and "Vinewood" .

C.P. Conrail. with the NEW Amtrak connecting track ( west of West Detroit on the Michigan line ) as well as the NEW second track that runs to Vinewood as well.

At "Ecorse Jct" the track that heads towards "Townline " is the Junction Yard running track.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby ConrailDetr​oit » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:20 pm

On the NS Mains the furtherest west track is the Livernois Industrial, remembered by it being on the side of the yard. The east track is the Old Main. The CSX Q Intermodal trains frequently sit on either track while waiting for a signal at Delray or to enter the yard.

The local BD-07 is the only train NS runs on the track when they switch the graphite plant and uses the caboose for the reverse move back to Delray.

Rarely, CN will run this route referred as the old route.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:12 pm

Thanks, everyone, and particularly ConrailDetroit and Fred.

Finally, who uses Conrail's Detroit Line at Waterman to enter Livernois Yard? I'd have thought CSX would use it, but it sounds as if CSX used NS's Livernois Industrial. If it's NS, that seems a bit odd they'd not use the line they own outright to access their own part of that yard.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby Fred » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:22 pm

The CSXT Q-131, 132, 150, & 151 use the Old Main & Livernois Industrial tracks. The green tracks listed as NS are actually Conrail mains that see the CP trains for Canada, the NS (and the occasional CSXT) trains destined North Yard or Sterling, the CSXT transfer from Rougemere going to Livernois and the CR transfer job from Livernois to River Rouge. Also the NS van trains 20N & 21n will use that track to CP Waterman to enter the NS van site Hope I didn't muddy all this up.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:43 pm

Just a little bump for a final bit of clarification, but is there any definitive way to find who owns the Shore Line between West Detroit and Vinewood? I only ask, because I've seen people bring up in this thread that it's NS when nearly every map I can find and description I can find shows it as CN, accept NS does show it on their system map, but I have to figure they mean they have trackage rights over it. The only NS portion of the track I can find is what I've mentioned here as being between Delray and West Detroit.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby M.D.Bentley » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:28 am

Well..........I can tell you that I've never seen a NS hy rail vehicle north of the Michigan line OR a CN hy rail vehicle south of the Michigan line. There was a sign at West Detroit on the NS "Old Main" that stated "End of N&W maintenance limits" on the south side ( I think I have a picture , somewhere. ) The CN just reworked the track north of the diamond at West Detroit as well as installed a second track ( from West Detroit to Vinewood ) in conjunction with the "NEW" Amtrak Michigan line connection at C.P. Conrail. Some of the confusion comes from the fact that the NS does go between West Detroit and Vinewood, just via the Mich line and North yard branch AND NOT the Shoreline sub. A better detailed map would clarify .
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:51 pm

That's what I thought. I remember when writing MDOT about the West Detroit Connection Track they were fairly clear that CN was building the vast majority of connection track (Conrail would be building the small section west of the bridge). So, I guess that answers that. It's kind of funny, because the project probably benefits Conrail and its constituent railroads more than anyone else as it took Amtrak out of Bay City Junction.

Speaking of Amtrak, with the completition of the connecting track, how does Amtrak run its double-track sections in and out of Detroit station? Do they do bi-directional running?
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby M.D.Bentley » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:05 pm

MiddleMI wrote:That's what I thought. I remember when writing MDOT about the West Detroit Connection Track they were fairly clear that CN was building the vast majority of connection track (Conrail would be building the small section west of the bridge). So, I guess that answers that. It's kind of funny, because the project probably benefits Conrail and its constituent railroads more than anyone else as it took Amtrak out of Bay City Junction.

Speaking of Amtrak, with the completition of the connecting track, how does Amtrak run its double-track sections in and out of Detroit station? Do they do bi-directional running?


Project doesn't really benefit Conrail or it's parents as Amtrak is the only one using the connection at this time. Conrail oversaw the construction , but the bulk of the work was done with outside contractors :roll: . This project is/was just one small part of a much larger MDOT plan. Not sure about Amtrak operations. Remember that this work was to shave time off of Amtrak s schedule and to avoid the congestion that USE to be at West Detroit, Spring works & Vinewood.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:11 pm

It helps Conrail as it keeps Amtrak's traffic out of Bay City Junction. I didn't even mention that it helps Amtrak because of course it does; that's who the project was built for. I was talking about the freights. Neither of them get a lot of benefit, but Conrail certainly gets more of the benefit than CN, who I was told was the one who built most of the connection track since Amtrak never used the Shoreline between West Detroit and Vinewood, anyway. This was done to get Amtrak out of Bay City Junction with is Conrail parent traffic and CP, too.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby M.D.Bentley » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:15 am

MiddleMI wrote:It helps Conrail as it keeps Amtrak's traffic out of Bay City Junction. I didn't even mention that it helps Amtrak because of course it does; that's who the project was built for. I was talking about the freights. Neither of them get a lot of benefit, but Conrail certainly gets more of the benefit than CN, who I was told was the one who built most of the connection track since Amtrak never used the Shoreline between West Detroit and Vinewood, anyway. This was done to get Amtrak out of Bay City Junction with is Conrail parent traffic and CP, too.


I was one of the flagman for the project ( covering the area between Livernois ave. & West Detroit. ) and even with the O/S tracks and speed restrictions. Delays to the Amtrak trains were almost non existent. As for trains at Bay City Jct., trains were held for traffic ahead at "Delray", one of the bridges , "YD" and/or "Coolidge". Dispatching trains is like a dance and some dispatchers make it seam-less and some what elegant , while others ............ The NEW connection does offer options that were not available before AND if the money had not come from the government Conrail would never have paid for the project out of pocket. Hopefully traffic will increase and the new connection will prove itself worthwhile.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:28 pm

Well, while I'm talking about the improvement in times for current Amtrak service, the real impetus for all of these projects is part of the long-term projects to make the line high(er)-speed whenever that eventually happens i.e. the High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail (HSIPR) Program . They can get speeds up to 100 MPH on part of the trip between Porter and Kalamazoo and want to get some speeds up east of Kalamazoo, so anything they can do to shave off even a few minutes here and there matter in the aggregate. Even at just the current service levels, at peak delays, this project can take a full 10 minutes off between the Dearborn and Detroit stations.

BTW, speaking of this project, it didn't just include the connection track, but three crossovers in the territory (and all of the signal work at Milwaukee Junction, etc). Does anyone know where the crossovers are? I also saw on a little project map an area of the Beaubien interlocking labeled "pocket siding."
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby ConrailDetr​oit » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:33 am

There are new crossovers on the Shoreline Sub just south/west of the depot called Avery.

Also, the Clay St crossovers are now powered with a new Control Point called D&M.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby MiddleMI » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:01 am

Thanks.

One more question. Does the Norfolk Southern line that serves Oakwood and beyond (the old Wabash main) have a formal name? I've seen one map call it the NS Detroit District, but I imagine that's the name for the collection of NS lines around Detroit.
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Re: Shore Line between Delray and West Detroit

Unread postby ConrailDetr​oit » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:54 am

MiddleMI wrote:Thanks.

One more question. Does the Norfolk Southern line that serves Oakwood and beyond (the old Wabash main) have a formal name? I've seen one map call it the NS Detroit District, but I imagine that's the name for the collection of NS lines around Detroit.


NS Detroit District.
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