GTW west of Coopersville

Any historical questions can be posted here. Answers would certainly help as well :)

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby PatAzo » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:03 am

It's technically feasible. The tunnel boring machines working in London are passing less than a foot from active subway tunnels and weaving through building pilings. It's possible sure. But fiscally the GTW shouldn't have built to Grand haven in the first place.
PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:20 pm

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby MQT1223 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:17 pm

MQT3001 wrote:Max, you never explicitly said it, but based on your "reasonings", it sounded like you're ready for them to get started

The C&M has difficulty just keeping what they have with their low budget. They make it happen, but expansion isn't in the cards, nor will it be.


I know that they are not going to expand, jeez. I'm imaging if we lived in a perfect world where the CMPY was more then just "Model Railroading 1:1 scale". I'm not the only one who thinks, and wishes that the CMPY could be much more.

PatAzo wrote:It's technically feasible. The tunnel boring machines working in London are passing less than a foot from active subway tunnels and weaving through building pilings. It's possible sure. But fiscally the GTW shouldn't have built to Grand haven in the first place.


Why do you say that?
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)
User avatar
MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby J T » Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:09 pm

PatAzo wrote:It's technically feasible. The tunnel boring machines working in London are passing less than a foot from active subway tunnels and weaving through building pilings. It's possible sure.

:lol: Image
User avatar
J T
Hates Supper
 
Posts: 10474
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:23 pm
Location: Grand Rapids

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby Saturnalia » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:27 pm

MQT1223 wrote:However if the mindset of the CPMY changed they probably could relay track to as far as the outskirts of Spring Lake since most of the ROW appears to be intact. They own that mile of ROW west of Coopersville.


And then you go on to theories about reconnecting GR and GH by passenger rail and whatnot. That is why I'd contend you're sounding a lot like you think it is somewhat feasible or may happen.

I understand that you don't think it will happen and whatnot, but the amount of detail and speculation you then insert tends to counter-act those claims :wink:
Thornapple River Rail Series - YouTube
Dah Yooper Snowfall Total: 317"
User avatar
Saturnalia
Authority on Cat
 
Posts: 13643
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm
Location: Michigan's Copper Country

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby PatAzo » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:31 pm

MQT1223 wrote:Why do you say that?


Actually I think line came into the Grand Trunk fold with the Great Western purchase. But traffic to and from Chicago has always been where their money was. The lines across mid-Michigan were poor performers financially. GTW got saddled with two of them.
PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:20 pm

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby MQT1223 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:03 pm

MQT3001 wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:However if the mindset of the CPMY changed they probably could relay track to as far as the outskirts of Spring Lake since most of the ROW appears to be intact. They own that mile of ROW west of Coopersville.


And then you go on to theories about reconnecting GR and GH by passenger rail and whatnot. That is why I'd contend you're sounding a lot like you think it is somewhat feasible or may happen.

I understand that you don't think it will happen and whatnot, but the amount of detail and speculation you then insert tends to counter-act those claims :wink:


I put a lot of thinking into my imagination process, I'm not gonna start at point A without an ending.

PatAzo wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:Why do you say that?


Actually I think line came into the Grand Trunk fold with the Great Western purchase. But traffic to and from Chicago has always been where their money was. The lines across mid-Michigan were poor performers financially. GTW got saddled with two of them.


So your saying the GT got screwed over basically?
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)
User avatar
MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby Saturnalia » Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:28 am

I'm just trying to say that what you are explaining sometimes contradicts what you state at the beginning, hence the confusion :)

I could see piecemeal work done to reach new business in 25+ years, but it will never be a viable thru route in out lifetimes. GR would have to grow a TON to start thinking of commuter-type things
Thornapple River Rail Series - YouTube
Dah Yooper Snowfall Total: 317"
User avatar
Saturnalia
Authority on Cat
 
Posts: 13643
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm
Location: Michigan's Copper Country

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:04 am

MQT3001 wrote:I'm just trying to say that what you are explaining sometimes contradicts what you state at the beginning, hence the confusion :)

I could see piecemeal work done to reach new business in 25+ years, but it will never be a viable thru route in out lifetimes. GR would have to grow a TON to start thinking of commuter-type things


I try my best to explain what's on my mind. I'm not thinking about a commuter route either, I'm just thinking about two different excursion routes. No commuter service will ever exist again between GR and Grand Haven.
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)
User avatar
MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby PatAzo » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:18 am

MQT1223 wrote:So your saying the GT got screwed over basically?


In the railroad fever of the 1800's a lot of track was built that couldn't cover the cost of the capital it took to build them. Back then who envisioned what the world would be 100 years later? They had horses and dirt roads so railroads were a great thing. Coming through the 20th century four things had plagued GTW's profitability. Lack luster leadership from the CN, short hauls, high labor costs and 200+/- miles of marginal track.

As you think about the possibilities of relaying track, rough numbers figure $1M a mile to lay the track and up to $2M if you have to include earth work. Getting the track under I96 would probably involve closing one side of the road, excavating, building a bridge and doing the opposite side when the first bridge is complete. MDOT will spend $2M - $4M replacing an existing highway bridge so order of magnitude swag double that to build new.

If your confused at this point this is called dichotomy. Things that are seemingly contradictory. It won't happen but being discussed as if were.
PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:20 pm

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:43 pm

PatAzo wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:So your saying the GT got screwed over basically?


In the railroad fever of the 1800's a lot of track was built that couldn't cover the cost of the capital it took to build them. Back then who envisioned what the world would be 100 years later? They had horses and dirt roads so railroads were a great thing. Coming through the 20th century four things had plagued GTW's profitability. Lack luster leadership from the CN, short hauls, high labor costs and 200+/- miles of marginal track.

As you think about the possibilities of relaying track, rough numbers figure $1M a mile to lay the track and up to $2M if you have to include earth work. Getting the track under I96 would probably involve closing one side of the road, excavating, building a bridge and doing the opposite side when the first bridge is complete. MDOT will spend $2M - $4M replacing an existing highway bridge so order of magnitude swag double that to build new.

If your confused at this point this is called dichotomy. Things that are seemingly contradictory. It won't happen but being discussed as if were.


I thought tunneling under I-96 would be more economically feasible so you would be able to avoid shutting the highway down and digging it back out.
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)
User avatar
MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby ns8401 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:02 pm

MQT1223 wrote:
PatAzo wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:So your saying the GT got screwed over basically?


In the railroad fever of the 1800's a lot of track was built that couldn't cover the cost of the capital it took to build them. Back then who envisioned what the world would be 100 years later? They had horses and dirt roads so railroads were a great thing. Coming through the 20th century four things had plagued GTW's profitability. Lack luster leadership from the CN, short hauls, high labor costs and 200+/- miles of marginal track.

As you think about the possibilities of relaying track, rough numbers figure $1M a mile to lay the track and up to $2M if you have to include earth work. Getting the track under I96 would probably involve closing one side of the road, excavating, building a bridge and doing the opposite side when the first bridge is complete. MDOT will spend $2M - $4M replacing an existing highway bridge so order of magnitude swag double that to build new.

If your confused at this point this is called dichotomy. Things that are seemingly contradictory. It won't happen but being discussed as if were.


I thought tunneling under I-96 would be more economically feasible so you would be able to avoid shutting the highway down and digging it back out.

That's easier said than done. I mean if we had Warren Buffet behind a project like this than consider it done. But that little line really has no chance of ever existing on the other side of I-96 again. I get that you have ideas but you have to temper them with some dose of reality.
Celebrating Over 3400 Posts in HD
This updated Signature Brought To YOU By The One The Only MQT3001!
NS8401, Online, At Trackside And On Your Side
User avatar
ns8401
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 3551
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:57 pm
Location: Chicago, IL/Ann Arbor MI

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:34 pm

ns8401 wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:
PatAzo wrote:So your saying the GT got screwed over basically?


In the railroad fever of the 1800's a lot of track was built that couldn't cover the cost of the capital it took to build them. Back then who envisioned what the world would be 100 years later? They had horses and dirt roads so railroads were a great thing. Coming through the 20th century four things had plagued GTW's profitability. Lack luster leadership from the CN, short hauls, high labor costs and 200+/- miles of marginal track.

As you think about the possibilities of relaying track, rough numbers figure $1M a mile to lay the track and up to $2M if you have to include earth work. Getting the track under I96 would probably involve closing one side of the road, excavating, building a bridge and doing the opposite side when the first bridge is complete. MDOT will spend $2M - $4M replacing an existing highway bridge so order of magnitude swag double that to build new.

If your confused at this point this is called dichotomy. Things that are seemingly contradictory. It won't happen but being discussed as if were.


I thought tunneling under I-96 would be more economically feasible so you would be able to avoid shutting the highway down and digging it back out.

That's easier said than done. I mean if we had Warren Buffet behind a project like this than consider it done. But that little line really has no chance of ever existing on the other side of I-96 again. I get that you have ideas but you have to temper them with some dose of reality.[/quote]

Like I said in one of my previous posts, if this was a perfect world then this would happen. I do agree though that at the current route of things on the CPMY that it will never happen.
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)
User avatar
MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby PatAzo » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:56 pm

MQT1223 wrote:I thought tunneling under I-96 would be more economically feasible so you would be able to avoid shutting the highway down and digging it back out.


While soils are sufficiently compacted to carry I96 they wouldn't be self supporting during tunneling. You might scratch out a small tunnel but clearances for railroad track will be around 17' wide and 23' over the top of the rails. A tunnel boring machine can take months to assemble at the site and to start they need a structure to push against. By the time the boring machine and it's infrastructure were readied you'd be well on the way to simply excavate and build bridges.
PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:20 pm

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby C&O6084 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:51 pm

The GT line dates back from Michigan territory days; one of the first three State lines, the northern state trunk line. It's one of the oldest in the state, started before statehood.

SHouldn't have been built? Sorry, Young Grasshoppers, but back when labor was cheap and trains were the fastest transportation around, this line was quite profitable; downright lucrative. GT maintained it as long as the railferry continued to operate. First abandonment was when GT moved to Muskegon from Grand Haven and built Penn Junction. Only the end of the ferry killed it-- labor costs had been climbing astronomically, run-thrus in Chicago eliminated the time advantage, plus no funds had been set aside for replacement.
Last edited by C&O6084 on Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C&O6084
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:42 pm

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:06 pm

C&O6084 wrote:The GT line dates back from Michigan territory days; one of the first three State lines, the northern state trunk line. It's one of the oldest in the state, started before statehood.

SHouldn't have been built? Sorry, Young Grasshoppers, but back when labor was cheap and trains were the fastest transportation around, this line was quite profitable; downright lucrative. GT maintained it as long as the railferry continued to operate. First abandonment was when GT moved from Muskegon to Grand Haven and built Penn Junction. Only the end of the ferry killed it-- labor costs had been climbing astronomically, run-thrus in Chicago eliminated the time advantage, plus no funds had been set aside for replacement.


Oh so that's the Northern Line that was talked about in the Michigan Territory days. I thought the F&PM's main was. So the Central line was the DT&M from Detroit to GR and the original Michigan Southern is the Old Wabash now NS? Or are most of the original lines from the territory days abandoned?
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)
User avatar
MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby C&O6084 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:24 pm

Southern Line became the LS&MS "Old Line", Toledo to White Pigeon and on to Chicago. Monroe to Adrian and Kazoo to Grand Rapids was added later, along with other branches. All that's left is Kazoo to Otsego, and minor shortline remnants that I don't keep track of.

Central Line became Erie and Kalamazoo, then Michigan Central. Detroit to Kensington, Illinois. Porter to Kensington is mostly gone.

Northern line went Detroit to Grand Haven, via Grand Rapids, the GT line we've been posting about here. . A more mortherly, parallel route went through Sparta, but was abandoned somewhere abouts World War II.

All three were chartered by Michigan Territory, so initial land deeds come from the offices in Toledo, Michigan. Michigan really went out on a limb to finance them (they were gov't owned lines), allowing each line to also open banks, which did little for the railroads. In fact, the Panic of 1837 was started by these RR banks and their bonds going bust.

Although not mentioned in school history of the Toledo War, these lines and their banks and bonds figurde greatly in ending the land dispute. Ohio kept re-surveying the border until they got the results they wanted (it's NOT a N-S border), but Federal surplus money was about to go out to states (and states only). Michigan needed it to pay off its financial mess, but President Jackson said it had to end the dispute with Ohio before it could get statehood and surplus money.

So, Michigan reluctantly agreed, accepted the western half of the UP (they already had the western half, near to Manistique), took the money, and paid off the bonds.

The Pere Marquette, later C&O and CSX, was composed of many, many logging lines, plus F&PM, C&WM and DGR&W. many-- like over 100.
C&O6084
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:42 pm

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:54 pm

C&O6084 wrote:Southern Line became the LS&MS "Old Line", Toledo to White Pigeon and on to Chicago. Monroe to Adrian and Kazoo to Grand Rapids was added later, along with other branches. All that's left is Kazoo to Otsego, and minor shortline remnants that I don't keep track of.

Central Line became Erie and Kalamazoo, then Michigan Central. Detroit to Kensington, Illinois. Porter to Kensington is mostly gone.

Northern line went Detroit to Grand Haven, via Grand Rapids, the GT line we've been posting about here. . A more mortherly, parallel route went through Sparta, but was abandoned somewhere abouts World War II.

All three were chartered by Michigan Territory, so initial land deeds come from the offices in Toledo, Michigan. Michigan really went out on a limb to finance them (they were gov't owned lines), allowing each line to also open banks, which did little for the railroads. In fact, the Panic of 1837 was started by these RR banks and their bonds going bust.

Although not mentioned in school history of the Toledo War, these lines and their banks and bonds figurde greatly in ending the land dispute. Ohio kept re-surveying the border until they got the results they wanted (it's NOT a N-S border), but Federal surplus money was about to go out to states (and states only). Michigan needed it to pay off its financial mess, but President Jackson said it had to end the dispute with Ohio before it could get statehood and surplus money.

So, Michigan reluctantly agreed, accepted the western half of the UP (they already had the western half, near to Manistique), took the money, and paid off the bonds.

The Pere Marquette, later C&O and CSX, was composed of many, many logging lines, plus F&PM, C&WM and DGR&W. many-- like over 100.


Quite a history lesson. Some of this I learned in my Michigan History class last semester. Very impressive. The territorial Southern, Central and Northern lines gave Michigan such a financial headache that in the state constitution (I believe the original, and all of them afterwords), it forbid Michigan from directly investing in projects like this (something like that, don't remember 100%). Its sad these lines don't really exist today.
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)
User avatar
MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
 
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby EWRice » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:55 pm

People often forget the huge role that the rr ferry played in determining land routes. Grand Haven, Muskegon, Ludington, Frankfort and Manistee were all the big players supporting rail lines on the west side. Look how many lines were downsized or abandoned after ferry service ended at a location.
EWRice
Railroadfan...fan
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:07 pm
Location: Muskegon, MI

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby Saturnalia » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:01 am

EWRice wrote:People often forget the huge role that the rr ferry played in determining land routes. Grand Haven, Muskegon, Ludington, Frankfort and Manistee were all the big players supporting rail lines on the west side. Look how many lines were downsized or abandoned after ferry service ended at a location.

Add to that the routes from Toledo that depended on the boats from Lake Erie. You'd shuttle from NYC to Lake Erie on a train, then over the water on a boat, then onto a train at Toledo, and then a train to Chicago...sometimes even using a boat across Lake Michigan!

Trains ruled, and horses drooled.
Thornapple River Rail Series - YouTube
Dah Yooper Snowfall Total: 317"
User avatar
Saturnalia
Authority on Cat
 
Posts: 13643
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm
Location: Michigan's Copper Country

Re: GTW west of Coopersville

Unread postby CSX_CO » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:12 am

If you're going by boat to Toledo like you describe, why wouldn't you just go by boat all the way to Chicago? Or am I missing something?
CSX_CO
Over and Out
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:34 pm
Location: Indiana

PreviousNext

Return to Historical Q & A

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

x