PM/C&O Otter Lake Branch

[MQT1223]

Just curious if anyone has any photo's to share of the PM/C&O Otter Lake Branch when it was still in service. It would be neat to see area's that are now used by the Huckleberry Railroad as well as area's the Huck never built on. Personally I think the Huckleberry should extend it's tracks to Otisville because the line doesn't go deep into Genesee before hitting the East Loop, but it will never happen and 464's range is limited. A narrow gauge tank car would have to be built/retrofitted to act as an auxiliary tender for 464 to compensate for the added distance. Could make a second station stop in Otisville with parking and people pay admission and tickets to ride to Crossroads. Adds another train thrill if you ask me to have a second legitimate destination, but that's just a personal thought/dream. Still would like to see pictures before the standard gauge tracks were converted to narrow gauge.

[jimnorthwood]

The Huck cut back the eastern end terminus of its line a number of years ago. Whether this was due to physical issues with the right of way, or the perception that the ride was too long (read boring) for small children, or something else, is no longer in my memory. This railroad is quite the amazing operation, yet does not receive anywhere near the amount of publicity it deserves. Probably its adjacent to Flint location (and I can say that, on account I was born there) plays a role here. When the Huck opened as a Bicentennial project in 1976, Genesee County residents had one of the highest per capita incomes (85,000 GM jobs will do that for you) in the country, and very low cost of living to boot. 90+% of those jobs disappeared over time, meaning the county isn't nearly what it once was. The low cost of living is still there, but most of the GM jobs are not. So there will be no expansion of the Huck's operation. Indeed I wonder how they manage to keep it going, given the beating the economy has taken there in the 35+ years since the Huck opened. We all should be glad they do, though.

[Steve B]

This thread has a good discussion of the east loop abandonment. Several reasons for it.

http://www.railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewto ... 3&p=262665

[MQT1223]

The Huck cut back the eastern end terminus of its line a number of years ago. Whether this was due to physical issues with the right of way, or the perception that the ride was too long (read boring) for small children, or something else, is no longer in my memory. This railroad is quite the amazing operation, yet does not receive anywhere near the amount of publicity it deserves. Probably its adjacent to Flint location (and I can say that, on account I was born there) plays a role here. When the Huck opened as a Bicentennial project in 1976, Genesee County residents had one of the highest per capita incomes (85,000 GM jobs will do that for you) in the country, and very low cost of living to boot. 90+% of those jobs disappeared over time, meaning the county isn't nearly what it once was. The low cost of living is still there, but most of the GM jobs are not. So there will be no expansion of the Huck's operation. Indeed I wonder how they manage to keep it going, given the beating the economy has taken there in the 35+ years since the Huck opened. We all should be glad they do, though.

The east loop was shortened because #2 could not make the steep grade in the woods, this was before #464 was on site.

[MQT1223]

The Huck cut back the eastern end terminus of its line a number of years ago. Whether this was due to physical issues with the right of way, or the perception that the ride was too long (read boring) for small children, or something else, is no longer in my memory. This railroad is quite the amazing operation, yet does not receive anywhere near the amount of publicity it deserves. Probably its adjacent to Flint location (and I can say that, on account I was born there) plays a role here. When the Huck opened as a Bicentennial project in 1976, Genesee County residents had one of the highest per capita incomes (85,000 GM jobs will do that for you) in the country, and very low cost of living to boot. 90+% of those jobs disappeared over time, meaning the county isn't nearly what it once was. The low cost of living is still there, but most of the GM jobs are not. So there will be no expansion of the Huck's operation. Indeed I wonder how they manage to keep it going, given the beating the economy has taken there in the 35+ years since the Huck opened. We all should be glad they do, though.

I was more interested in what the Otter Lake branch looked like under the PM/C&O.

[~Z~]

The Huck cut back the eastern end terminus of its line a number of years ago. Whether this was due to physical issues with the right of way, or the perception that the ride was too long (read boring) for small children, or something else, is no longer in my memory. This railroad is quite the amazing operation, yet does not receive anywhere near the amount of publicity it deserves. Probably its adjacent to Flint location (and I can say that, on account I was born there) plays a role here. When the Huck opened as a Bicentennial project in 1976, Genesee County residents had one of the highest per capita incomes (85,000 GM jobs will do that for you) in the country, and very low cost of living to boot. 90+% of those jobs disappeared over time, meaning the county isn't nearly what it once was. The low cost of living is still there, but most of the GM jobs are not. So there will be no expansion of the Huck's operation. Indeed I wonder how they manage to keep it going, given the beating the economy has taken there in the 35+ years since the Huck opened. We all should be glad they do, though.

I was more interested in what the Otter Lake branch looked like under the PM/C&O.

2/3 of your original post was about huckleberry's service and about running further, so don't be too surprised that someone posted about it... not wise to dismiss the way you did about what jim took his time writing to you.

[AARR]

... not wise to dismiss the way you did about what jim took his time writing to you.

I liked what Jim wrote So it is appreciated.

[MQT1223]

The Huck cut back the eastern end terminus of its line a number of years ago. Whether this was due to physical issues with the right of way, or the perception that the ride was too long (read boring) for small children, or something else, is no longer in my memory. This railroad is quite the amazing operation, yet does not receive anywhere near the amount of publicity it deserves. Probably its adjacent to Flint location (and I can say that, on account I was born there) plays a role here. When the Huck opened as a Bicentennial project in 1976, Genesee County residents had one of the highest per capita incomes (85,000 GM jobs will do that for you) in the country, and very low cost of living to boot. 90+% of those jobs disappeared over time, meaning the county isn't nearly what it once was. The low cost of living is still there, but most of the GM jobs are not. So there will be no expansion of the Huck's operation. Indeed I wonder how they manage to keep it going, given the beating the economy has taken there in the 35+ years since the Huck opened. We all should be glad they do, though.

I was more interested in what the Otter Lake branch looked like under the PM/C&O.

2/3 of your original post was about huckleberry's service and about running further, so don't be too surprised that someone posted about it... not wise to dismiss the way you did about what jim took his time writing to you.

I'm not dismissing it or the fact that I wrote about the Huck in my post. I do agree that the Huck does not get the publicity it deserves. All of it's rolling stock and locomotives get amazing work done. 464 seems to be spotless every time I see it, I don't think a cinder can touch her.

[jimnorthwood]

I thought I recalled seeing a photo or two of a train on the Otter Lake/Otisville branch posted on the "other" board, sometimes referred to as the "old guy" board (again I can say that, as I am one of them). If so the likely poster would have been Elba Steve. He and Steve B. are THE definitive sources for all things Flint railroading. For reasons I don't completely understand, and Steve B. and I have discussed this I believe, there just don't seem to be a lot of photographs out there (in private collections, anyway, although they may exist at the Bentley, UM-F, FPL) of Flint area railroads. This is too bad, as Flint did have some very interesting operations, railroad-wise. As an example, C&O trains emerging from behind the buildings downtown along the river near what used to be the Hyatt, etc. Perhaps the dearth of photographs is due to the fact that so much of this railroading happened on GM property? I can recall going with my father to "Family Day" at Buick and being much more interested in the two Buick switch engines that were there than in the interior of the factories themselves. In keeping with the above, neither of us took any pictures. I remember being followed in my car by CN police for quite a distance after I took some photographs (from private property, namely the parking lot of Vechell's Lounge on Court Street, if you are familiar with the area) of a derailed GTW train of hi-cube boxcars that were being pulled out of Chevy in the Hole. Hmmm...perhaps I've answered my own question as to why there don't appear to be more photographs.

[MQT1223]

I thought I recalled seeing a photo or two of a train on the Otter Lake/Otisville branch posted on the "other" board, sometimes referred to as the "old guy" board (again I can say that, as I am one of them). If so the likely poster would have been Elba Steve. He and Steve B. are THE definitive sources for all things Flint railroading. For reasons I don't completely understand, and Steve B. and I have discussed this I believe, there just don't seem to be a lot of photographs out there (in private collections, anyway, although they may exist at the Bentley, UM-F, FPL) of Flint area railroads. This is too bad, as Flint did have some very interesting operations, railroad-wise. As an example, C&O trains emerging from behind the buildings downtown along the river near what used to be the Hyatt, etc. Perhaps the dearth of photographs is due to the fact that so much of this railroading happened on GM property? I can recall going with my father to "Family Day" at Buick and being much more interested in the two Buick switch engines that were there than in the interior of the factories themselves. In keeping with the above, neither of us took any pictures. I remember being followed in my car by CN police for quite a distance after I took some photographs (from private property, namely the parking lot of Vechell's Lounge on Court Street, if you are familiar with the area) of a derailed GTW train of hi-cube boxcars that were being pulled out of Chevy in the Hole. Hmmm...perhaps I've answered my own question as to why there don't appear to be more photographs.

Ya the whole private property thing sure does suck. CN police followed you? What a bunch of pricks... I have never been followed by any railroad police YET... Any clue of what the traffic was like back in the day on the old Otter Lake Branch? I know north of Otisville was abandoned 20 years before the rest was entirely, I'd be curious as to the reason it was constructed, or what warranted rail service to be made in that direction. It's a pretty quiet area now. Following it on Google Maps is pretty easy south of Otisville (and because 4 miles is active Huck trackage) but north of Otisville you can't even find the grade just the trees that have grown over the right of way, then it just ends next to a random 4-way intersection.

[jimnorthwood]

Yes, CN police tailed me for quite a distance to make sure I was going to leave the area and not return. This was many years ago when I was young. I recall being scared, not angry. The term you used to describe the CN police was very disrespectful and rude and crude and probably doesn't belong in this venue, but I'll let the moderator of this forum deal with that as he sees fit, if he sees fit. I'll chalk it up to what is probably youthful over-exuberance on your part and move on. You have to picture what that area northeast of Flint looked like 150 years ago, in order to be able to understand the need for and purpose of, construction by the F&PM of what was known as the Flint River RR. Imagine white pines in excess of 100 feet tall. Great potential for lumbermen of the era, but useless unless you had a way to get them to market (Chicago). The Flint River saw many a log drive during the lumber era, but it froze in the winter and was subject to low water in the summer. Roads? No such thing. So this railroad was constructed, and its purpose was solely to serve the logging industry. When all the trees had been harvested the track was cut back to Otisville, the only town of any significance on this line. It's been many years since I've been to Otisville, but I suspect that at the time of final abandonment in the early 1970's, just before Genesee County Parks bought the right of way, Otisville probably had as its last customer(s) either a lumber yard or feed mill/elevator, which was typical for the terminus of many small town branch lines of that era. Most of these "one shipper at the end" type branch lines have disappeared, although a few are operated by short lines. One notable exception is the branch to Hamilton, which I believe is now owned by the shipper, which contracts with CSX for service.

[SD80MAC]

You are correct, Jim. The southern portion of the Hamilton branch is owned by the Co-Op and CSX provides the service.

[MQT1223]

Yes, CN police tailed me for quite a distance to make sure I was going to leave the area and not return. This was many years ago when I was young. I recall being scared, not angry. The term you used to describe the CN police was very disrespectful and rude and crude and probably doesn't belong in this venue, but I'll let the moderator of this forum deal with that as he sees fit, if he sees fit. I'll chalk it up to what is probably youthful over-exuberance on your part and move on. You have to picture what that area northeast of Flint looked like 150 years ago, in order to be able to understand the need for and purpose of, construction by the F&PM of what was known as the Flint River RR. Imagine white pines in excess of 100 feet tall. Great potential for lumbermen of the era, but useless unless you had a way to get them to market (Chicago). The Flint River saw many a log drive during the lumber era, but it froze in the winter and was subject to low water in the summer. Roads? No such thing. So this railroad was constructed, and its purpose was solely to serve the logging industry. When all the trees had been harvested the track was cut back to Otisville, the only town of any significance on this line. It's been many years since I've been to Otisville, but I suspect that at the time of final abandonment in the early 1970's, just before Genesee County Parks bought the right of way, Otisville probably had as its last customer(s) either a lumber yard or feed mill/elevator, which was typical for the terminus of many small town branch lines of that era. Most of these "one shipper at the end" type branch lines have disappeared, although a few are operated by short lines. One notable exception is the branch to Hamilton, which I believe is now owned by the shipper, which contracts with CSX for service.

So it's just one of those lines that served it's purpose and no longer has a reason (except for the Huck) to be in service. Its value was early on. I can only imagine the sheer size of the trees that used to stand in there. I wonder if a logging camp used to lie at the end of the original line. Funny before you said the Hamilton branch at the end of your comment because that automatically came to mind before I even read that part. But it's not that I disrespect railroad police, but photographer's that are not even on railroad property should not have to be followed away from the railroad. I guess I can give it to them, it was a derailment, and I bet the only attention they wanted was from the FRA.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

...sometimes referred to as the "old guy" board (again I can say that, as I am one of them).

"OLD GUY" board???

I post over there too, but I've never seen or heard it referred to like that before... not that I'm offended or anything, but wow, thanks for bursting my 'young guy' bubble, Jim.

[jimnorthwood]

No offense intended, GreatLakesRailfan I also post to and enjoy reading posts on, both boards. I can't say if I've ever met any of the guys who post to either board, although it is likely I have, unknowingly, at some point. After all, I've spent more than one Saturday evening hanging around the Durand Depot over the years. The "other" board does seem to have more posters who are older. I base that on the writing style, as well as the historical content that is detailed there. This board seems to have a larger number of younger railfans, guys who don't mind getting out and chasing/photographing/videoing/documenting trains in the December through February calendar period. That was me 30 years ago, but not today. It is cool to see the new, younger generation taking such interest in this hobby. It certainly helps to offset my "this hobby is dying" mentality when I go to model railroad shows and I am one of the "young" guys there