LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Doktor No » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:00 pm

Good god has this gone wacko or what?
GT didn't run any geeps shoving boxcars up any lines that are stated here as a test. Why in hell would they do that?
And I realize some of this has gotten rather facitious but thats going RIGHT OVER THE HEAD of some of these kids. OY!
PC and NYC did service customers out at 28th street. The heavy equipment dealer just south of 28th (Vos Equipment) used to get dozers and such from time to time well into the 60's. GRGravel had an industrial park further south and I assume some of those got serviced from time to time. GR Sash and Door and Bell Fibre got cars regularly. The lumber customer at Porter across from the Legion Hall did too. After the diamond was pulled we did that work. Just pulled the NYC Interchange switch and track a few years back. That ended right behind J&H. Handy spot to put gons for MofW crap.
As for the diamond being an operating headache with a MAINLINE crossing our line? It was at best an industrial lead with infrequent movements. I don't really remember the signal setup there though, all went before I started my tenure at Da C&O.
PC DID put a number of FlexiVan cars on the trestle west/south of the plaster mines. Sat there for a long time too. The plaster/wallboard plants shipped wallbaord well into the 80's. Saw many a ATSF double door boxes there.
NYC DID buy interurban trackage in the GR area. At best an SW1 was about the only engine that could cross the Grand. It was heavily restricted for weight according to the TT's from back then I have. I think they mostly wanted to get into the industries behind Godfrey and I think they did get into the Keeler Bras plant back in there. I know Pennsy and us were on the lower leg of the Godfrey industry trackage. All tied into a convoluted right of way that included Old17 and the trackage still in use to Columbian Storage. That was Conrail/NS up until just recently when CSX took it over even though they couldn't get to it anymore.
Lots of history in the GR area. Much stuff to learn but coming to conclusions without the learning part gets annoying.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Doktor No » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:13 pm

And GR Sahs and Door used to be on the corner of 44th and Clyde Park with regular rail service in the early 60's as was Michigan Caterpiller. Remnant of the line to Pitric Acid plant and it DID cross the xway with a rather elabortae signal system to stop 131 traffic. Line still exists into Magic Steel at Clay Ave between 44th and 36th.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:29 pm

KittyLitter wrote:Good god has this gone wacko or what?
GT didn't run any geeps shoving boxcars up any lines that are stated here as a test. Why in hell would they do that?
And I realize some of this has gotten rather facitious but thats going RIGHT OVER THE HEAD of some of these kids. OY!
PC and NYC did service customers out at 28th street. The heavy equipment dealer just south of 28th (Vos Equipment) used to get dozers and such from time to time well into the 60's. GRGravel had an industrial park further south and I assume some of those got serviced from time to time. GR Sash and Door and Bell Fibre got cars regularly. The lumber customer at Porter across from the Legion Hall did too. After the diamond was pulled we did that work. Just pulled the NYC Interchange switch and track a few years back. That ended right behind J&H. Handy spot to put gons for MofW crap.
As for the diamond being an operating headache with a MAINLINE crossing our line? It was at best an industrial lead with infrequent movements. I don't really remember the signal setup there though, all went before I started my tenure at Da C&O.
PC DID put a number of FlexiVan cars on the trestle west/south of the plaster mines. Sat there for a long time too. The plaster/wallboard plants shipped wallbaord well into the 80's. Saw many a ATSF double door boxes there.
NYC DID buy interurban trackage in the GR area. At best an SW1 was about the only engine that could cross the Grand. It was heavily restricted for weight according to the TT's from back then I have. I think they mostly wanted to get into the industries behind Godfrey and I think they did get into the Keeler Bras plant back in there. I know Pennsy and us were on the lower leg of the Godfrey industry trackage. All tied into a convoluted right of way that included Old17 and the trackage still in use to Columbian Storage. That was Conrail/NS up until just recently when CSX took it over even though they couldn't get to it anymore.
Lots of history in the GR area. Much stuff to learn but coming to conclusions without the learning part gets annoying.


GT was interested in buying the line to keep a connection with Grand Rapids but backed out of the deal, that's why the Geep and Boxcar were used to test the track to see what kind of work needed to be done and what kind of shape the track was in at the time.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Doktor No » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:33 pm

Again, I say 100% BS! Pics, documentation other then hearsay? Doesn't exist because it didn't happen.
Prove it.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby J T » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:53 pm

KittyLitter wrote:Good god has this gone wacko or what?
GT didn't run any geeps shoving boxcars up any lines that are stated here as a test. Why in hell would they do that?
And I realize some of this has gotten rather facitious but thats going RIGHT OVER THE HEAD of some of these kids. OY!
PC and NYC did service customers out at 28th street. The heavy equipment dealer just south of 28th (Vos Equipment) used to get dozers and such from time to time well into the 60's. GRGravel had an industrial park further south and I assume some of those got serviced from time to time. GR Sash and Door and Bell Fibre got cars regularly. The lumber customer at Porter across from the Legion Hall did too. After the diamond was pulled we did that work. Just pulled the NYC Interchange switch and track a few years back. That ended right behind J&H. Handy spot to put gons for MofW crap.
As for the diamond being an operating headache with a MAINLINE crossing our line? It was at best an industrial lead with infrequent movements. I don't really remember the signal setup there though, all went before I started my tenure at Da C&O.
PC DID put a number of FlexiVan cars on the trestle west/south of the plaster mines. Sat there for a long time too. The plaster/wallboard plants shipped wallbaord well into the 80's. Saw many a ATSF double door boxes there.
NYC DID buy interurban trackage in the GR area. At best an SW1 was about the only engine that could cross the Grand. It was heavily restricted for weight according to the TT's from back then I have. I think they mostly wanted to get into the industries behind Godfrey and I think they did get into the Keeler Bras plant back in there. I know Pennsy and us were on the lower leg of the Godfrey industry trackage. All tied into a convoluted right of way that included Old17 and the trackage still in use to Columbian Storage. That was Conrail/NS up until just recently when CSX took it over even though they couldn't get to it anymore.
Lots of history in the GR area. Much stuff to learn but coming to conclusions without the learning part gets annoying.


Image

MQT1223 wrote:GT was interested in buying the line to keep a connection with Grand Rapids but backed out of the deal, that's why the Geep and Boxcar were used to test the track to see what kind of work needed to be done and what kind of shape the track was in at the time.



KittyLitter wrote:Again, I say 100% BS! Pics, documentation other then hearsay? Doesn't exist because it didn't happen.
Prove it.


Max, are you really going to argue with a guy who LIVED it? Image
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby SD80MAC » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:59 pm

Sit down son, y'all been schooled!
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http://flickriver.com/photos/conrail6809/popular-interesting/
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:35 pm

SD80MAC wrote:Sit down son, y'all been schooled!
J T wrote:
KittyLitter wrote:Good god has this gone wacko or what?
GT didn't run any geeps shoving boxcars up any lines that are stated here as a test. Why in hell would they do that?
And I realize some of this has gotten rather facitious but thats going RIGHT OVER THE HEAD of some of these kids. OY!
PC and NYC did service customers out at 28th street. The heavy equipment dealer just south of 28th (Vos Equipment) used to get dozers and such from time to time well into the 60's. GRGravel had an industrial park further south and I assume some of those got serviced from time to time. GR Sash and Door and Bell Fibre got cars regularly. The lumber customer at Porter across from the Legion Hall did too. After the diamond was pulled we did that work. Just pulled the NYC Interchange switch and track a few years back. That ended right behind J&H. Handy spot to put gons for MofW crap.
As for the diamond being an operating headache with a MAINLINE crossing our line? It was at best an industrial lead with infrequent movements. I don't really remember the signal setup there though, all went before I started my tenure at Da C&O.
PC DID put a number of FlexiVan cars on the trestle west/south of the plaster mines. Sat there for a long time too. The plaster/wallboard plants shipped wallbaord well into the 80's. Saw many a ATSF double door boxes there.
NYC DID buy interurban trackage in the GR area. At best an SW1 was about the only engine that could cross the Grand. It was heavily restricted for weight according to the TT's from back then I have. I think they mostly wanted to get into the industries behind Godfrey and I think they did get into the Keeler Bras plant back in there. I know Pennsy and us were on the lower leg of the Godfrey industry trackage. All tied into a convoluted right of way that included Old17 and the trackage still in use to Columbian Storage. That was Conrail/NS up until just recently when CSX took it over even though they couldn't get to it anymore.
Lots of history in the GR area. Much stuff to learn but coming to conclusions without the learning part gets annoying.


Image

MQT1223 wrote:GT was interested in buying the line to keep a connection with Grand Rapids but backed out of the deal, that's why the Geep and Boxcar were used to test the track to see what kind of work needed to be done and what kind of shape the track was in at the time.



KittyLitter wrote:Again, I say 100% BS! Pics, documentation other then hearsay? Doesn't exist because it didn't happen.
Prove it.


Max, are you really going to argue with a guy who LIVED it? Image


I'm not arguing with the guy. I only answered his question of "Why in the hell would they do that?" Plus this was my first thread, like I knew what I was doing. I still don't but I have a better idea now. I never said ANY of my information was actually true, I was only reiterating what I had heard.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Doktor No » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:01 pm

If you reinterate what you HEARD around a railfan sight or amongst ANY railroaders and put it to ink you are gonna get one hell of a cramp cause its whats called SANDHOUSE TALK. Worth exactly what you pay for it...and that is NUTHIN. Don't believe 90% of what you hear and you'll do fine.
Hell, I work here....and I hear stuff from time to time...I always say, "Where'd ya hear that from." I usually get "from my cousins uncles brother." Yeah right.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:34 pm

KittyLitter wrote:If you reinterate what you HEARD around a railfan sight or amongst ANY railroaders and put it to ink you are gonna get one hell of a cramp cause its whats called SANDHOUSE TALK. Worth exactly what you pay for it...and that is NUTHIN. Don't believe 90% of what you hear and you'll do fine.
Hell, I work here....and I hear stuff from time to time...I always say, "Where'd ya hear that from." I usually get "from my cousins uncles brother." Yeah right.


Well when the original part of this thread got sidetracked because photos of this line in service are rare, so I asked if there was any truth to the whole GT wanting the GR Division. Clearly there was no proof, but then the MGR&I was brought up and so forth. Jumped in on the bandwagon a little late. :lol: Speaking of which, can you look back to where my whistle post is mentioned early in this thread? I'm still trying to determine what crossing it came from. 44th street was too close according to people on here so what road existed north of that before the apartments were put in? You seem to be knowledgeable in regards to this line.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby J T » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:43 pm

MQT1223 wrote:Speaking of which, can you look back to where my whistle post is mentioned early in this thread? I'm still trying to determine what crossing it came from. 44th street was too close according to people on here so what road existed north of that before the apartments were put in? You seem to be knowledgeable in regards to this line.

As I said earlier in the thread, that south-facing whistle post was most likely for Wentworth. I'm holding a 1970 Kent County map in my hands right now and it clearly shows Wentworth existed then.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:02 pm

J T wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:Speaking of which, can you look back to where my whistle post is mentioned early in this thread? I'm still trying to determine what crossing it came from. 44th street was too close according to people on here so what road existed north of that before the apartments were put in? You seem to be knowledgeable in regards to this line.

As I said earlier in the thread, that south-facing whistle post was most likely for Wentworth. I'm holding a 1970 Kent County map in my hands right now and it clearly shows Wentworth existed then.


:D Wow JT didn't think you would pay attention to this. Where did you get a 1970 Kent County Map?
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby J T » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:57 am

MQT1223 wrote:
:D Wow JT didn't think you would pay attention to this. Where did you get a 1970 Kent County Map?

Well, seeing as it was a discussion we already had earlier in this thread, why would I not pay attention to it?

I can't remember how I obtained this map. Perhaps I found it at a country museum or something. It's been a few years.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Doktor No » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:22 am

There is an abundance of mappage of Kent and may other counties out there and available. Go to the bobanna godwin website and go snoop in the interurban section (under I!) and the railroad section (under R!) and you'll find lots of interesting stuff.
Now I'm really gonna make you freak out. Look at earilier and even up to the 1960 kent County Atlas in the Paris Township Wyoming area and you will see that there is a long section of land from the NYC north of the 52nd Street crossing westward to near Division Ave. The New York Central had ownership of a rather large piece of property and the power line from the substation on Division at 50th eastward is built upon that property. NYC owned a large piece of land at 52nd and Eastern on the northeast corner also.
Take some time to digest that one now would yee.
Edit....After perusing bobannagodwin site I cannot find the plat maps showing the NYC properties any longer. The OTHER board and the Grand Rapids Kalamazoo Interurban Facebook page do have the plat maps of late though showing the NYC land holdings.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:37 pm

KittyLitter wrote:There is an abundance of mappage of Kent and may other counties out there and available. Go to the bobanna godwin website and go to the county atlas section (under A!) and then snoop in the interurban section (under I!) and the railroad section (under R!) and you'll find lots of interesting stuff.
Now I'm really gonna make you freak out. Look at earilier and even up to the 1960 kent County Atlas in the Paris Township Wyoming area and you will see that there is a long section of land from the NYC north of the 52nd Street crossing westward to near Division Ave. The New York Central had ownership of a rather large piece of property and the power line from the substation on Division at 50th eastward is built upon that property. NYC owned a large piece of land at 52nd and Eastern on the northeast corner also.
Take some time to digest that one now would yee.


What made them own such a large swatch of land? Thoughts of expansion?
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby J T » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:07 pm

MQT1223 wrote:Speaking of which, can you look back to where my whistle post is mentioned early in this thread? I'm still trying to determine what crossing it came from. 44th street was too close according to people on here so what road existed north of that before the apartments were put in? You seem to be knowledgeable in regards to this line.

Ok, here's an aerial view from 1960. Wentworth is there and looks to be a dirt road at this point in the time. I'm still certain that the south facing whistle post you found was for a northbound train to blow for Wentworth.

ttp://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/7 ... /Michigan/
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby J T » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:08 pm

It appears that Wentworth was there in in this 1912 map as well:

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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:11 pm

J T wrote:It appears that Wentworth was there in in this 1912 map as well:

Image


I wonder what's up with the track that heads due west at Wentworth. Also what's up with the small yard north of there? If this map is still correct it appears to be between Prairie and 28th St. Also the spur north of 28th st. Maybe for the building that now houses the Kent Door Co.?
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Raildudes dad » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:19 pm

Gravel pits / deposits. Roads in 1912 were 2 track dirt roads. No trucks, horse drawn wagons. The Road Commission was started in 1911. They hired contractors with horse teams at first and later owned some. Their first trucks were WW1 surplus and bought their first new truck in 1924.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby J T » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:23 pm

MQT1223 wrote:I wonder what's up with the track that heads due west at Wentworth.

I'm interested to see if the ROW from that spur still exists. Gonna have to do a little snooping around along the bike path once the snow melts.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:24 pm

J T wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:I wonder what's up with the track that heads due west at Wentworth.

I'm interested to see if the ROW from that spur still exists. Gonna have to do a little snooping around along the bike path once the snow melts.


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no. Who knows how long its been gone. Whats not been developed woud be your only clues which would lead you to that spur. My guess is it went to the general area of the Gypsum mines around Big Spring Lake and the Grandville Middle school, unless the PM somehow made its way that far into town. Might've followed the Buck Creek Trail closely. Where were the gravel deposits located that warrented the yard between the modern day Prairie St. and Ivanrest Ave.?
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