LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Ben Higdon » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:43 pm

The LSMS was still used to reach customers south of Lamar after service ceased north of Byron Center, not sure if service ended north of Byron Center in late NYC or early PC years) The portion between Parchment and Plainwell had no customers and was omitted from PC maps within a few years of the merger.

The former interurban line in GR was called the Grand Rapids Belt and was nothing more than a long industrial track running south to Kelvinator from the LSMS on the west side of the river. NYC also took over a small portion of the line in Parchment. It'd be interesting to know if NYC considered taking over the entire route as a
direct route to Elkhart from GR, but that was before Mid-Michigan traffic was routed to Elkhart, it would have had little to no established traffic, and NYC already controlled the MC and it's Valley route from Jackson.

I've never heard of any trackage rights on the PRR. I'd like to hear any evidence that NYC bought the interurban to access GR. I think it's much more likely they only purchased the short sections in GR and Parchment which laid within established industrial areas.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby PatAzo » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:03 pm

Ben Higdon wrote:It'd be interesting to know if NYC considered taking over the entire route as a direct route to Elkhart from GR. I think it's much more likely they only purchased the short sections in GR and Parchment which laid within established industrial areas.


I'd also doubt NYC considered buying the interurban route. If you figure the interurban mileage Kalamazoo to GR the same as the PRR, it would be about 10 miles shorter than their own LS&MS route. This was the days of the ICC and regulation. It really unlikely the NYC would have been able to cast off the LS&MS line in favor of the interurban. To buy it would have saddled them with two routes, one with virtually no traffic, to save GR cars 10 miles.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:09 pm

PatAzo wrote:
Ben Higdon wrote:It'd be interesting to know if NYC considered taking over the entire route as a direct route to Elkhart from GR. I think it's much more likely they only purchased the short sections in GR and Parchment which laid within established industrial areas.


I'd also doubt NYC considered buying the interurban route. If you figure the interurban mileage Kalamazoo to GR the same as the PRR, it would be about 10 miles shorter than their own LS&MS route. This was the days of the ICC and regulation. It really unlikely the NYC would have been able to cast off the LS&MS line in favor of the interurban. To buy it would have saddled them with two routes, one with virtually no traffic, to save GR cars 10 miles.


Well somehow the NYC at some point owned the bridge that is now a part of the Oxford Street Trail, which goes over Market St. and the Grand River. They also owned the tracks associated with it, and that was originally interurban. The LS&MS line was never a terribly busy line after the NYC got it. The line from Grand Rapids to Jackson was favored over it, the one that now stops at Steelcase. I have only seen it used a few times for storage and nothing else. I don't know if any active industries exist on it even, or if Grand Elk is holding out on Steelcase being a customer again at some point. But none the less, the LS&MS line was not the primary route into GR that the NYC liked to use, especially after WWII.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Notch 8 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:45 pm

The GT looked at purchasing the GR&I/PC any truth to that rumor ? If so how far south ?
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:32 pm

Notch 8 wrote:The GT looked at purchasing the GR&I/PC any truth to that rumor ? If so how far south ?

My guess would be where the current CN line intersects it. Now this is news to me, as I only heard about the LS&MS line being looked at. Would not surprise me at all though that the GT abandoned the idea of coming back into GR. Not much was left for them anyway...
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Ben Higdon » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:37 pm

MQT1223 wrote:
PatAzo wrote:
Ben Higdon wrote:It'd be interesting to know if NYC considered taking over the entire route as a direct route to Elkhart from GR. I think it's much more likely they only purchased the short sections in GR and Parchment which laid within established industrial areas.


I'd also doubt NYC considered buying the interurban route. If you figure the interurban mileage Kalamazoo to GR the same as the PRR, it would be about 10 miles shorter than their own LS&MS route. This was the days of the ICC and regulation. It really unlikely the NYC would have been able to cast off the LS&MS line in favor of the interurban. To buy it would have saddled them with two routes, one with virtually no traffic, to save GR cars 10 miles.


Well somehow the NYC at some point owned the bridge that is now a part of the Oxford Street Trail, which goes over Market St. and the Grand River. They also owned the tracks associated with it, and that was originally interurban.


Did you read my post stating this?

MQT1223 wrote:
Notch 8 wrote:The GT looked at purchasing the GR&I/PC any truth to that rumor ? If so how far south ?

My guess would be where the current CN line intersects it. Now this is news to me, as I only heard about the LS&MS line being looked at. Would not surprise me at all though that the GT abandoned the idea of coming back into GR. Not much was left for them anyway...


GTW purchased the short section of the GR&I in Vicksburg to serve Simpson Paper from Conrail. The other profitable portions of the GR&I were retained by Conrail, at least initially.

The GT abandoned the idea of coming back to GR? Do you realize GT was in Grand Rapids until the late 80s?
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:14 pm

Guess I missed that post. I am naturally observant can't you see? :lol: I wish Railroadfan member Rob would chime in on this thread. He was the one who originally told me about the GT Geep going up the Grand Rapids Division to check the line out. We were at the model railroad club one night and it came up somehow... he would know way more then me on this. I was just looking for opinions/input. Heck maybe I got it all wrong and it was suppose to be the line from Jackson to GR before it was ripped up... The GT still did have the connection like you said but I think they wanted to try and stay in GR.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby SD80MAC » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:30 pm

MQT1223 wrote:Guess I missed that post. I am naturally observant can't you see? :lol: I wish Railroadfan member Rob would chime in on this thread. He was the one who originally told me about the GT Geep going up the Grand Rapids Division to check the line out. We were at the model railroad club one night and it came up somehow... he would know way more then me on this. I was just looking for opinions/input. Heck maybe I got it all wrong and it was suppose to be the line from Jackson to GR before it was ripped up... The GT still did have the connection like you said but I think they wanted to try and stay in GR.

If they had wanted to stay in GR they wouldn't of sold their line through GR to Central Michigan in 1987.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:02 pm

SD80MAC wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:Guess I missed that post. I am naturally observant can't you see? :lol: I wish Railroadfan member Rob would chime in on this thread. He was the one who originally told me about the GT Geep going up the Grand Rapids Division to check the line out. We were at the model railroad club one night and it came up somehow... he would know way more then me on this. I was just looking for opinions/input. Heck maybe I got it all wrong and it was suppose to be the line from Jackson to GR before it was ripped up... The GT still did have the connection like you said but I think they wanted to try and stay in GR.

If they had wanted to stay in GR they wouldn't of sold their line through GR to Central Michigan in 1987.

At one time they wanted to try was what I meant. Clearly that is not the case now.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby run8ed » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:39 am

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but... there is NO WAY the Grand Trunk EVER CONSIDERED buying any former Penn Central route out of Grand Rapids. If they had, they would certainly had sent at least one fully loaded DEEX unit coal train over the route in order to test bridge load limits. They would also have operated the train at 40 mph (minimum) to check the timing for crossing signals (25 mph timing would have been a deal breaker). Finally, they could only operate trains on this line with F units-- the wheelbase on these units were specifically set to maximize adhesion on the 39 foot sections of rail that riddled the line. GTW would have been forced to recondition several of their old F units to even think about running a test train--and that's assuming they still had their original M-3 airhorns.

On the brighter side of things, I'm happy to report that there are still prints for "Railroad Field of Dreams" #s 1 through 4 available on ebay. I would recommend print #3--primarily because of the Pennsylvania SD70 pulling a double stack train. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Railroad-fields ... 1241152182
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby SD80MAC » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:24 am

Umm, did everyone forget that GTW did buy a former PC line out of Grand Rapids, the old PRR main to Muskegon?

I'm not sure where the guy above me got the idea that the line was designed for "F units" as the line had been laid long before any diesel was thought of. And a GP7/GP9 has the same "wheelbase", as you call it, as an F unit since they all shared a common frame and trucks.

And what in the world would the horns on the engines have to do with anything? Did you even read what you just typed!?
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Ben Higdon » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:29 am

I heard that GTW ran a test train on the former MC to Grand Rapids and they discovered the rails were laid with the joints directly opposite each other. This, combined with the poor condition of the track caused the lead locomotive to pitch forward and back badly, and Birdakin happened to be inspecting the paved over crossing at 28ts St when he heard it approaching, and disliked the variation in the loudness of the horn so much (due to the rocking if the locomotive) that he called it all off. It would have cost to much to move forty miles of one of the rails so the joints were staggered. So clearly the type of horn they would have used on the line was irrelevant. I don't know where you're getting your info on that M-3 story but you better check your sources
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:35 am

Ben Higdon wrote:I heard that GTW ran a test train on the former MC to Grand Rapids and they discovered the rails were laid with the joints directly opposite each other. This, combined with the poor condition of the track caused the lead locomotive to pitch forward and back badly, and Birdakin happened to be inspecting the paved over crossing at 28ts St when he heard it approaching, and disliked the variation in the loudness of the horn so much (due to the rocking if the locomotive) that he called it all off. It would have cost to much to move forty miles of one of the rails so the joints were staggered. So clearly the type of horn they would have used on the line was irrelevant. I don't know where you're getting your info on that M-3 story but you better check your sources

Where did the Michigan Central cross 28th St? I don't doubt your story just curious where.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby kenN » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:51 am

The MC crossed both 28th St and Division Ave on separate overpasses, close to the intersection of those two streets.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Ben Higdon » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:20 pm

kenN wrote:The MC crossed both 28th St and Division Ave on separate overpasses, close to the intersection of those two streets.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would they pave over the tracks on an overpass?
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby MQT1223 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:13 pm

Ben Higdon wrote:
kenN wrote:The MC crossed both 28th St and Division Ave on separate overpasses, close to the intersection of those two streets.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would they pave over the tracks on an overpass?

Yeah... but is that doesn't make any sense, especially when the tracks and bridges are still in place and in occasional use. I don't know if storage is the only use, but I have never seen anything else on those tracks. I don't think any of those crossings were ever paved over on the MC, at least around here... Heck Kzoo and 44th wasn't paved over. I can see the GT looking at the line because it went to Jackson, but I think your getting the MC confused with the LS&MS. The LS&MS crossings were definitely paved over in many spots.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Ben Higdon » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:42 pm

MQT1223 wrote: I can see the GT looking at the line because it went to Jackson


Jackson is a nice place
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby wyrickj » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:52 pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I recall possibly CSX used to store cars on the grand river bridge possibly mid 90's? Was there any business left back in the mine area? I do remember seeing something on the school bus.
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby Notch 8 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:40 am

run8ed wrote:I hate to be the bearer of bad news but... there is NO WAY the Grand Trunk EVER CONSIDERED buying any former Penn Central route out of Grand Rapids.


There was talk of the GT purchasing the former GR&I once upon a time... would have been neat to see this materialize...
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Re: LS&MS Grand Rapids Division Pics

Unread postby J T » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:38 am

Ben Higdon wrote:
kenN wrote:The MC crossed both 28th St and Division Ave on separate overpasses, close to the intersection of those two streets.


That doesn't make any sense. Why would they pave over the tracks on an overpass?

Who said anything about them paving over tracks on an overpass?

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