Ann Arbor Pittsfield Jct. Signals

[Ypsi]

I have always been interested in the AA's Pittsfield Junction, and recently I have been trying to figure out the signals for the junction a little better. What I know is that there are signals on either side of the diamond that generally show red over red, on the branch there are dwarfs for each side of the diamond that will show red or green, and there are approach signals for the diamond on both sides the one on Ellsworth shows approach (and I am not sure what the one near Warner road shows yet). I have photos of the Ellsworth approach, and the junction NB signal to share tonight

This is the Ellsworth signal showing its "normal" approach

It does not seem that this signal will show anything else based on the one bulb that is hanging from the top of the inside of the signal. I also noted that the D (for distant) used to be another aspect but has been covered over.

The NB and SB signals for The junction are the same and normally they show the red over red, and that's how most people recognize them, but I have a picture of them showing green over red (Clear). I have only seen this once, and some people I have never seen this before. I am not sure who controls this signal, or if it is a regular signal indication for the junction (as in it happens for every train).


I have noted the one time I saw them cross the main to on the branch, the conductor threw some kind of switch which I assume would give them a clear on their dwarf signal. I can't really think of anything else about the signals of the branch, but if anyone has corrections or anything to add please do, I'll work on grabbing better shots of the all signals tomorrow morning.

[Y@]

The distant signal is the approach signal for that diamond. It will constantly display approach.

As for the green over red... That's a clear. That means a train is lined across that diamond.

[Ypsi]

Yeah I know what they mean I just never see the signal display a clear.. even when a train is present on the mainline.. Mainly I am wondering who controls the signal, I assume the Hallet tower in Toledo would change it, but generally it is displaying restricting. I will also edit my post to reflect what the colors mean.

There was a train on the main when I took the photo of the clear signal, but most times in the same situation it shows a stop.

[Saturnalia]

The approach signals depend on weather they are statutory or actually display based on the next signal/block occupancy.

[Saturnalia]

There was a train on the main when I took the photo of the clear signal, but most times in the same situation it shows a restricting.

What arrangement of colors do you mean by "restricting"

[Ypsi]

There was a train on the main when I took the photo of the clear signal, but most times in the same situation it shows a restricting.

What arrangement of colors do you mean by "restricting"

restricted restricting... red over red. so restricted. Stop whatever. I'm not too great with signal indications sometimes

[Saturnalia]

There was a train on the main when I took the photo of the clear signal, but most times in the same situation it shows a restricting.

What arrangement of colors do you mean by "restricting"

restricted restricting... red over red. so restricted. Stop whatever. I'm not too great with signal indications sometimes

That would be restricting on intermediate signals, but on the absolute signals, like the ones right at the diamond, it would be stop.

[Ypsi]

Gotcha.. Normally when I am talking about signals, I will interchange "Stop, Restricted, and Restricting" (idk why) which is what gets me in trouble when I try and talk about signals lol.

[Y@]

That would be restricting on intermediate signals, but on the absolute signals, like the ones right at the diamond, it would be stop.

Uh, no. Red over red is stop on any signal.

[Saturnalia]

That would be restricting on intermediate signals, but on the absolute signals, like the ones right at the diamond, it would be stop.

Uh, no. Red over red is stop on any signal.

Better check your CSX rulebook. Red over red on intermediates is restricted proceed, often called restricting for short. So no, not always a flat stop indication.

[CSX_CO]

Better check your CSX rulebook. Red over red on intermediates is restricted proceed, often called restricting for short. So no, not always a flat stop indication.

YOU need to check your rulebook. "Restricted Proceed" and "Restricting" are two different indications. You only get 'restricted proceed' on intermediates, and 'restricting' on absolutes. They are NOT interchange able in so far as aspects/indications are concerned. They both require 'restricted' speed, but are not the same signal. Also, 'red over red' on the UP for an intermediate is 'stop and proceed'. Signal rules vary, but a 'red' is usually treated as a stop unless rules govern differently.

So, red over red is stop. A number plate, g marker, or d marker (et al) modify it to something else. If someone steals the number plate that signal becomes an absolute stop until replaced. The 189 signal on the Garrett Sub, just off US 31 at LaPaz Indiana, had one of its number plates stolen. Until signals could get up there and replace it, it was treated as "stop", and you had to get talked by the signal until the number plate was replaced. No number plate (or other 'modifier') on a signal, it gets treated as the most restrictive indication that signal can display. Which would be 'stop'.

Before the Monon was resignaled between Lafayette and Ames, there were still absolute semaphore signals that didn't protect anything anymore. When you encountered a 'stop' at those locations, the dispatcher had to talk you by them. The signal system still thought what that signal had protected 'once upon a time' was still there. If you went by the signal without permission (such as an E test) you were just as fired as with running any other 'positive stop'.

Practice Safe csx

[StupidFlee​t]

The 189 signal on the Garrett Sub, just off US 31 at LaPaz Indiana, had one of its number plates stolen. Until signals could get up there and replace it, it was treated as "stop", and you had to get talked by the signal until the number plate was replaced. No number plate (or other 'modifier') on a signal, it gets treated as the most restrictive indication that signal can display. Which would be 'stop'.

Would that only be for anything more restrictive than an approach?

[cbehr91]

I assume the Hallet tower in Toledo would change it, but generally it is displaying restricting.

Could be an automatic too -- whoever hits the circuit first gets the signal.

[StupidFlee​t]

I assume the Hallet tower in Toledo would change it, but generally it is displaying restricting.

Could be an automatic too -- whoever hits the circuit first gets the signal.

If I'm thinking it's where it's at, it's more than likely an automatic.

[Saturnalia]

Better check your CSX rulebook. Red over red on intermediates is restricted proceed, often called restricting for short. So no, not always a flat stop indication.

YOU need to check your rulebook. "Restricted Proceed" and "Restricting" are two different indications. You only get 'restricted proceed' on intermediates, and 'restricting' on absolutes.

The "correction" corrects me by saying exactly what I said

[CSX_CO]

The "correction" corrects me by saying exactly what I said

Really now?

8:57 pm
That would be restricting on intermediate signals, but on the absolute signals, like the ones right at the diamond, it would be stop.

9:17 pm
Better check your CSX rulebook. Red over red on intermediates is restricted proceed, often called restricting for short. So no, not always a flat stop indication.

Emphasis added by me. Your assumption is incorrect. They are NOT the same.

"Restricted Proceed" and "Restricting" are two different indications. They are NOT the same, and one is NOT short for the other. You would fail a CSX Signal Rules test if you interchanged them.

Take a look at your CSX signal rules. Take the 'restricted proceed'. What makes that "all red" restricted proceed? The number plate or other 'marker'. You do not see a 'restricted proceed' on a signal without out some sort of 'marker' or 'milepost' sign.

Take off that marker, what do you see? Stop.

Practice Safe CSX

[CSX_CO]

Would that only be for anything more restrictive than an approach?

Yes. While the number plate was missing, if you had "Two Reds" there, it was treated as an absolute stop. Most crews would just 'hold back' of the signal until whomever was in front of them cleared the block so as to not have to 'jack around' with getting permission by it. If I remember correctly, there was even a dispatcher message drawing attention to the lack of number plate to remind crews of the 'change' until they installed a new one.

The signals at Markels outside Terre Haute (66.6) are a popular numberplate to take. Last time I was out there, signals had just spray painted some "66.6" on a regular black background, rather than having 'official' ones 'printed' up.

[Saturnalia]

often called restricting for short. So no, not always a flat stop indication.

Oh I see what you are confusing CSX_CO. I was just saying I have heard some crews say "restricting" when they call what are really restricted proceeds. I understand the rest already.

As to why I have heard a few crews use some sort of shorthand I don't know, but my understanding is that as long as you operate your train in accordance to the indication, what you say on the radio is basically meaningless...at least that is what I have heard.

[Y@]

No, you don't understand. You continue to play your game where you twist what you (and others) say around to make you seem correct. Nothing new here, at all.

[CSX_CO]

If I'm thinking it's where it's at, it's more than likely an automatic.

Looks like it would be a great candidate for an automatic railroad crossing at grade. It could be that the 'busier' line is always set to 'clear' unless something is going to use the cross route. I believe I've seen that someplace, but cannot recall where at this time. It really 'blew my mind' at the time because both sides of the interlocking, going in opposite directions, showed 'clear' indications. In ABS territory, that isn't out of the realm of possibilities.

In the case of one road having 'preference' over another, any cross traffic would get permission from the 'other' dispatcher to 'flag the interlocking' to make their crossing move.

Practice Safe CSX