Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Any historical questions can be posted here. Answers would certainly help as well :)

Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby Ypsi » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:02 pm

What I'm looking for is he type of train sets that te wolverine trains ran with from 1971 to like 2004ish
Some of the information I am intrested in is what engines commonly ran what years, along with what paint schemes were commonly seen when. Also length of trains an when the certain types of coaches ran like the cab cars. I do know a lot about the wolverine trains, like te turbos running in 1975 and the cab cars of the 90s but like I said I am looking for more specifics. An pictures that you have would be cool too :)
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby Michigan Railfan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:11 pm

This Wikipedia article gives some information about current wolverine trains, but not really much about the history of it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(train)#_
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby SD80MAC » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:21 pm

I would think that until the mid 1990's the F40PH would've been the most common power on those trains, running with a mix of Amfleet and Heritage equipment, then later Amfleet and Horizon fleet. It's possible in the 70's that an SDP40F or two might've powered a few Wolverines here and there as well, in addition to older E and F units.
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby MRC_Andrew » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:33 pm

I can remember the French Turbo equipment was used in Michigan in the late 70s or very early 80s, though I don't remember exact dates.

I can definitely remember seeing all-Heritage equipment trains (including E-units and even rond-end observation cars) as a kid in the mid 70s. By the late 80s it was usually an F40PH and three or four AMfleet coaches. I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing Horizon cars until the 90s.

Incidentally, I don't think Michigan's Amtrak trains always went by the name "Wolverine Service." Seems like there was a train called the "St. Clair." I'm not even 100% certain Detroit was included on the original Amtrak service map...
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby Ypsi » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:13 pm

MRC_Andrew wrote:
Incidentally, I don't think Michigan's Amtrak trains always went by the name "Wolverine Service." Seems like there was a train called the "St. Clair." I'm not even 100% certain Detroit was included on the original Amtrak service map...

if i remember there was the wolverine, twlightlight limited, lake cities...

actually here is some info from j32855

351 (Early morning to Chicago) WOLVERINE
353 (Lunchtime to Chicago) LAKE CITIES
350 (Midafternoon to Detroit) WOLVERINE
352 (Dinnertime to Detroit) LAKE CITIES
355 (Evening to Chicago) TWILIGHT LIMITED
354 (Midnight Amtrak... to Detroit) TWILIGHT LIMITED
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby csxt4617 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:48 pm

Yeah, those are the right names. And you also had the International, which shared equipment with VIA. Also, the Lake Cities used to continue south to Toledo. Don't remember when they discontinued that though. As to equipment, I can't tell you what was on in the 80's, but in the 90's, I remember it was mostly Amfleet "cigar tubes" until they got the Horizon cars, then they were mixed. Eventually, when they started push pull service, they used some Metroliner cab cars converted to push pull coaches. In the 90's, it would have pretty much been F40PH's, with an occasional GP40TC (don't remember when they bought those)
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby MRC_Andrew » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:03 pm

And there was also the "Michigan Executive," which ran Jackson-Detroit, I believe. And don't forget the "Niagara Rainbow" which ran out of MCS and across southern Ontario. Both of these were gone by 1980 or so, maybe earlier. Seems to me there's an issue of TRAINS magazine from the mid-70s that gives an "AMTRAK at a glance" type of view of what trains were on the national system at one given time, and included a brief summary of each train's equipment. I may even have a copy around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up...
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby Ypsi » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:17 pm

MRC_Andrew wrote:TRAINS magazine from the mid-70s that gives an "AMTRAK at a glance" type of view of what trains were on the national system at one given time, and included a brief summary of each train's equipment. I may even have a copy around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up...

Sounds like something I know TRAINS did recently, "Amtrak then and now" 1971 vs 2011 I think, but only routes we're on the map, no train names
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby MRC_Andrew » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:47 pm

Well.

In spite of the state of disarray in which my less-than-complete collection of TRAINS lies, I found the issue in question: January 1976. From the table accompanying the article "Amtrak at 6p.m., May 1, 1975" I gleaned the following information about what trains were headed to or from Detroit, and their equipment:

#352 Eastbound "Turboliner" Utilizing conventional equipment due to unavailable Turboliner, Chicago-Detroit
E-unit 233
Baggage/Lunch Counter/Lounge 1710
Coaches 6072 and 6090
Deadheading Coaches 3607 and 3635 (in Penn Central paint)

---------------

#354 Eastbound "Turboliner" Chicago-Detroit
Set 59/82/81/80/58

----------------

#355 Westbound "Turboliner" Detroit-Chicago
Set 66/86/87/88/58

----------------

#364 Eastbound "Blue Water" Chicago-Pt Huron
E-unit 316
Snackbar/Coach 3242 (in Penn Central paint)
Coach 6059
Snackbar/Coach/Observation 3871

--------------------

#373 Westbound "Michigan Executive" Detroit-Jackson
E-unit 216
Coach 3620 (in Penn Central paint)
Coach 3615 ( " " " ")
Coach 3623 (identified as an "extra coach" and also in Penn Central paint)

--------------------
Also in the table is a New York-Detroit train "Empire State Express" which may also have been the "Niagara Rainbow" under a different name.
#63 Westbound:
E-unit 291
Baggage 9171 (Penn Central paint)
Coaches 6445 and 6448
Cafe-Lounge 8051

#64 Eastbound:
E-units 276 & 276
Baggage 1063
Coaches 6418 & 6405
Cafe-Lounge 8342
Coach 6441
----------------------

Presumably, equipment not identified as being in Penn Central paint was lettered for Amtrak by this time. Hope this is of some use or interest...
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby MRC_Andrew » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:53 pm

CORRECTION: The Turboliner set for #355 should have 67 as the final car, not 58.
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby Ypsi » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:51 pm

Great list MRC_Andrew! That's really cool
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby MRC_Andrew » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:48 pm

And here's some more info about the "Michigan Executive" you might find pertinent:

http://csanders429.wordpress.com/trains ... executive/
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby ConrailDetr​oit » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:59 pm

Phase 3 and Phase 4 was around into the 00s on the Genesis engines.

Probably 353 arriving in Dearborn during the early 90s.

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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby TrainWatcher » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:40 pm

Also in the 90's the Metroliner Cab cars made an appearance for sometime before getting recalled back East.
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby ns8401 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:28 pm

TrainWatcher wrote:Also in the 90's the Metroliner Cab cars made an appearance for sometime before getting recalled back East.

Specifically 93-96 or so... :)
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Re: Amtrak Wolverine power/coaches

Unread postby GP30M4216 » Tue May 01, 2012 12:39 am

If you let me type long enough, I'll probably give you more information on this topic than you'd ever want to know. It's a subject that I've done some message board and google research on in the past, reading posts and saving and analyzing photos that others post to the web and I've found in print of Amtrak operations in Michigan over the past 41 years (Happy Birthday Amtrak!). I'm always interested to see more photos of Amtrak's operations in Michigan prior to the early 90s, which is when I was old enough to remember the trains I saw and my parents started taking pictures for me. I'll try to do my narration in as organized a way as I can, chronologically:

Michigan Line - Detroit-Chicago trains:
The very earliest days of Amtrak mirrored the last day of the Penn Central passenger operation here, with sad looking E-units toting short consists of inherited coaches up and down the old MC. Shortly after the Amtrak takeover, food service in the form of a snack coach was reinstated on those Michigan Line runs where that service had been eliminated. The original train names on the Michigan Line to Detroit were the Wolverine, St. Clair, and Twilight Limited. By 1973-74, Amtrak colors were much more common and cleaner red-nosed E-units were typically leading trains of 4-5 cars on the Michigan line, usually coaches + a snack coach/cafe lounge or one of the other titles for a food car mrc_andrew listed above.

Here's a Mark Dobronski photo of a May 1973 westbound at Townline:
Image
http://knorek.com/RR/SAA/MichiganLine/AMTRAK323.htm

Phase I paint with headless arrows was becoming the norm, giving a cleaner and more uniform look than the dreary Penn Central and other rainbow colors which preceded it. At least one round trip did run with a baggage car. Round-end observations were sighted on some trains, but to my knowledge no one train ever regularly carried such a car (Amtrak did away with all round-end obs cars in the late 1970s.....silly decision on their part),

Here's one of the best photos I've seen of a typical early-70s Amtrak train, this is at the old MC Station in Ann Arbor in 1974:
Image
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=91629

In spring 1975, the RTG Turboliners debuted in Michigan on one round trip, then a second. These were permanently coupled trainsets of 5 cars total. The Turbos added a significant improvement in reliability, speed and comfort, and also were a great PR tool to break away from the image of a worn-out traditional train toward something more modern and high-tech. These arrived in a variation of the Phase I paint.

Here's a photo I found on Flickr of two Turbos at the MC Depot in Detroit, with a D&H PA unit doing to or from a rebuilding someplace....just passing through!
Image
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/5083904164/

Here's a great Charlie Whipp image of a westbound Turbo leaving Ann Arbor (the current depot site would be just to the left here), ca. 1976 I'd imagine:
Image
http://railroadfan.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-60503

The Turbos were phased out by the early 1980s in Michigan because a) they were fuel hogs which made them uneconomical during the gas crunches in the 1970s, b) new equipment in the form of Amfleet cars and F40s were arriving, and c) the popularity of the Turbos increased ridership so much that trains were often sold-out, and with a Turbo set there is no way to add capacity. The last sets in service did get a Phase III paint job. They did their job well during this fairly brief "Turbo era."

Amfleet service debuted on the Michigan Line on May 16, 1976 with a single round trip, but it was some time before all trainsets were so-equipped. The late 70s saw the transition from Phase I paint to Phase II ("Cigar-band"), and F40s began to replace the last of the E-units. The earliest F40s showed up in Michigan in 1976, but they really made in-roads beginning in 1978 or 1979. Side note: The only photo I've ever seen of an SDP40F in Michigan is a late era of a pair of these beasts working a ballast train near New Buffalo in the early 80s. I don't think they regularly hauled passengers in Michigan.

This link shows a westbound train passing BO Tower in Kalamazoo, with a cigar-band E unit leading an F40, a Heritage Baggage car, and line of Amfleet coaches: http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/Pictures/Photos/051-060/Photo057C.htm

Service from Chicago to Toledo via the Michigan Line and Detroit started in 1980, I believe. Amtrak used the St. Clair for this run, renaming it the Lake Cities, and old Erie Lackawanna name.

The first of the brand-new Superliner I's regularly showed up on Michigan Line trains in 1980 on break-in runs from the Chicago Pullman plant, between Chicago to Detroit. They would return to the Michigan Line from time to time, usually in 4-5 car consists. Photos I've seen seem to show they were regularly on the 350/355 consist when assigned.

Here's a Detroit News image of a new Superliner I car at the MC Station in Detroit, 1980:
Image
http://www.opacity.us/site103_michigan_central_station.htm

From the WSU Virtual Motor City archive, a Superliner train arrives into Dearborn, probably mid-80s:
Image

Here's an Alan Gaines shot of what appears to be 350 stopped at Ann Arbor - new Superliners in tow:
Image
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2656368

For all intents and purposes, however, the 80s was THE decade of the F40 and Amfleet equipment. Trains of typically 3-5 cars with a single F40 would wind across Michigan from Detroit to Chicago and back again. As the decade went on, the stripes on the side went from cigar-band Phase II to tri-stripe Phase III, but the consists were generally the same. When not enough Amfleets were available or more capacity was needed, refurbished HEP-equipped Heritage cars would be added to the consist. Amfleet cafe cars replaced the cafe-lounges/lunch counters/etc. food service cars from the 70s. Comfort Class was available on some trains. I believe checked baggage was still offered on one round-trip.

Here's a Tim Vermande shot of a typical early 80s consist at Niles:
Image
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=780416
Lots more Turbo and early Amtrak shots in Niles here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=68503

And here's a Charlie Whipp capture of a westbound (northbound) Lake Cities passing FN Tower in Trenton in 1985:
Image
http://railroadfan.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-64004

Side note: While trains were still serving the MC Station in Detroit, all trains were wyed at Bay City Jct., and thus except for the Turbos, no consists were push-pull on this route. The MC Station closed on January 5, 1988 with the departure of 353, the Lake Cities; operations moved to a small temporary building and platform next door until 1993 when the new station at Woodward Avenue and Baltimore opened and trains continued north to Pontiac. I believe the last run of the Lake Cities to Toledo was about 1993, and service up the GTW to Pontiac began shortly after, but my timing might not be quite right.

Somewhere around 1990 Checked Baggage was removed from the last trainset. As the decade dawned, the new Horizon fleet of coaches and cafe cars arrived (1988-1990) and much of the fleet was assigned to Midwest services....Michigan trains! Unlike their Amfleet counterparts, these were square in profile and featured smooth sides and single-pane windows. Consists became a mix of Amfleet and Horizon equipment, leading to a sometimes strange round-square-round-square outline when looking down the train.

The 1990's were a kind of split decade. The first half was pretty standardized: Everything was Phase III paint, F40PHs provided power on all trains, consists were a mix of Amfleet and new Horizon equipment, and push-pull service was the norm with former Metroliner "Am-Cabs" on the end opposite the F40, usually the west end as per Chicago Union Station emissions requirements. This is the era when I remember going to the Dearborn station as a kid with my mom just to watch the train come in. My parents were both amateur photographers so I have some photos of trains in this era before I myself started taking the photos around 1997 (age 12).

Here we have a photo from my collection of what I believe is 350 arriving at Dearborn in August 1993 with F40PH 208:
Image
http://railroadfan.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-62822

No Metroliner cab car visible on the other end, so this train must have been wyed someplace.

The 350/355 consist has traditionally been the shortest of the three which work Michigan Line trains, often just three cars. By contrast, the 351/352 consist, which operates mornings to Chicago and afternoons from Chicago, has traditionally featured the most amenities, including upgraded dining service and checked baggage for a time, and regularly has more cars. The 353/354 consist tends to be the middle of the pack, with a longer consist, but generally without checked baggage, except in the late 90s.

Here's another Dearborn photo, this time 351, leaving Dearborn with F40 class leader 200 bringing up the markers. F40 316 was in the lead on this somewhat rare occasion during this era when a powered unit was on each end. March 1995:
Image

The second half of the 90's was a period of great change on the Michigan Line. My first NPCU F40 cab sighting for me was in 1996 (90368) and the Pepsi-Can P32-8s arrived in 1997, with my first sighting of one in Dearborn on April 1 of that year. Suddenly, in short order, gone were the real F40s, and gone were the Metroliner Am-Cabs. I, together with Mackinac Mac, saw our last true F40 on the Michigan Line on July 2, 1997. The Am-Cabs made a brief re-appearance in 1997, but by 1998 they were history and it was either a P32-8/NPCU combo or two P32-8s for power.

Amcab 9649 Dearborn 353 Jan 1998 (2).jpg
Metroliner cab 9649 brings up the markers on train 353, January 1998, shortly before the cabs were shipped elsewhere.


Here's a photo I took in about 1998 of a typical consist: This is 353, the westbound Lake Cities, at Dearborn. Note the baggage car - checked baggage began again on the Michigan Line around this time and lasted through about 2002. It was always a treat to check out which Heritage Baggage car would be on the train, as the next closest operation which included Heritage equipment was the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited routes.
Amtrak 504 Dearborn 353.jpg
P32-8 Pepsi Can 504 leads 353, with Heritage Baggage right behind, at Dearborn.


The late 90s was also the era when Phase IV paint started making appearances. The scheme debuted in 1993 on Superliner II and then Viewliner equipment, but Michigan Line trains remained solid Phase III until the last few years of the decade. For the next several years, trains became a miss-match combination of older Phase III stripes and miss-match Phase IV applications as Horizon coaches, Amfleet cafe cars, converted Metroliner cab-car-turned-coaches, and baggage cars were repainted.

The first Genesis locomotives also began intermixing with P32s at this time. This was still before the era of ITCS (which started in 2002), so general pool locomotives were regularly seen here. P32's and then Genesis began to get the Phase IV treatment just as rolling stock did. Entire consists could be alternating Phases III and IV. NPCUs were commonplace on the opposing end from the powered unit. A good example of all of this:

Image

The 350/355 consist also changed around this time. The consist, which used to be 4 cars, was reduced to three, and for a while (year 2000), Automat food service was provided in an old SP Heritage Car. Next, Amtrak cut back the run to Chicago-Detroit only, and they established a terminal behind the Detroit MC Station to load and unload ExpressTrak refrigerator cars, which ran on this train for a few years while Amtrak tried and then failed to gain a foothold in the express shipment business. Superliners occasionally operated on this run, either 2 or three of them. Once the ExpressTrak experiment was shut down and checked baggage removed, it was back to a three-car consist, which it retained until FINALLY in 2006 Amtrak added another coach to this run. The remaining consists typically were composed of 1 cafe car (either Amfleet or Horizon) and four coaches (all Horizon with the occasional converted former Metroliner cab car until about 2007).

Amtrak 028 Dearborn 355 1-24-2003.jpg
Amtrak 355 with Superliners, ExpressTrak reefers and a Heritage Baggage Car, early 2003.


What was probably the very last solid Phase III consist in revenue service anywhere on Amtrak was recorded on the Michigan Line on May 28, 2005, when P42 Genesis #32 (last one in this scheme) led two Phase III Horizon coaches, Phase III Horizon Cafe car #53506, and NPCU #90225. This was train 355, the Twilight Limited. Very shortly thereafter, P42 #32 went to Beech Grove and returned to service in the new Phase V scheme. By this point, aside from a few regular NPCU's, Phase III was becoming extinct. A few Phase III coaches continued to rattle on for a couple years until all were painted in the Phase IV or then-new Phase V paint, but by 2006 most equipment was in Phases IV or V. Here's a photo:
Image



-Too tired to continue so will post this now and continue my story in the morning.....there's still a long way to go!-
Last edited by GP30M4216 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:00 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby Ypsi » Tue May 01, 2012 8:29 am

Wow! Great stuff gp30m4216! Can't wait for you to finish
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby GP30M4216 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:49 pm

Well I've gotten most of my narrative done. I still may add a few more photos and some other details. Always looking to see photos from others if they have them to share. Next I'm going to tackle some research into the Niagara Rainbow, the only somewhat long-distance Amtrak train to ever serve Michigan. I can briefly go into the consists, etc. used on the International and Pere Marquette, but if others have things to share, by all means do so since these are Amtrak trains which I saw infrequently at most.
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby Ypsi » Tue May 01, 2012 9:25 pm

YpsiAmtrakBoy wrote:Wow! Great stuff gp30m4216! Can't wait for you to finish

Once again nice stuff!
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Re: Amtrak Woverine power/ coaches

Unread postby amtrak1007 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:52 pm

IIRC, the last run to TOL was june of 1993.

Also of note, there are no cars in phase V, the paint schemes are considered IVa, IVb, with the difference in the color of the blue and some text options.
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