NYC Air Line...

[Ben Higdon]

Does anyone have ideas why the NYC would have upgraded the Air Line route in the late 50s the way they did, versus upgrading the Old Road to Jonesville and the Fort Wayne Branch from there up to Jackson? It would have saved building the cut off at Three Rivers and the new wye at White Pigeon, and would have even been a few miles shorter. It would have been the same route at the east and west ends, from Elkhart to White Pigeon and Haires to Jackson. And besides that, the Air Line between Three Rivers and Jackson would have been a good candidate for abandonment, while the Old Road segment in question still supports traffic. Thoughts?

[AARR]

Was Niles Yard still fully operational at the time? Did Air Line still go all the way through to Niles at the time?

[Ben Higdon]

The Air Line between Niles and Three Rivers was removed in 1946, I believe. Niles Yard was slowly downgraded until all but local work moved over to Elkhart when that yard was rebuilt along with the Elkhart Branch (including the rest of the Air Line) in the late 50s. I wish they had went with Niles rather than Elkhart...I have a book by a guy that worked at Niles Yard and it sounded like there was lot of animosity over the choice (supposed favoritism for the former NYC, vs. MC). There was bad blood too on the NYC employees' part towards the MC men who were given jobs in Elkhart.

[leo28150]

The connection from the Old Road to the Ft. Wayne branch would have entailed a very sharp curve with some serious grade elevation change with the way the trackage was laid out near Ft. Wayne Jct. Also, the Old Road between Sturgis and Joneville had a few grades that would have slowed trains down considerably, not to mention what the grade changes were on the Ft. Wayne line.

I'm not sure what new wye at White Pigeon you are refering to; the original alignment of the main line was the Old Road. I've read about a wreck involving a passenger train detouring on the Old Road between Elkhart and Toledo; the derailment occured at the connection with the Grand Rapids branch, appearantly the head end crew hadn't been on this section in a while and didn't know that the NYC had realigned the trackage there with the Old Road being the diverging route.

Some old head that I've worked with in the past had told me that the mileage from Chicago to Buffalo thru Elkhart was about 100 miles longer than using the MC and the CASO thru Detroit and Canada and he believed that this got Robert Young in some hot water with some shareholders. While the milage was a little shorter, it probably wasn't faster with all the hills and curves the MC had between Niles and Dearborn----it's relatively flat between there and the tunnel--not to mention the delays associated with two border crossings.

[Ben Higdon]

When the NYC built the Jackson Elkhart Branch, they had to build a new connection for eastward moves on the Old Road to head up towards Three Rivers, before that the connection was for westward moves off the Old Road.

[leo28150]

The only reason I can think of is that the NYC already was thinking about cutting the Old Road from being a thru route at that time--although I'm thinking that they cut it in the wrong place; a lot of the traffic that came into/out of Hillsdale was eastbound traffic and therefore, had to run alot of extra miles going Hillsdale to Toledo via Elkhart. I've talked to an old head who worked out of Hillsdale in the fifties and he said that the train to Toledo would regularly have over 100 cars--which in turn required a push out of town by the Hillsdale yard crew!!!. Somewhere I've seen a photo--probably on the history board--that showed a Mohawk sitting at the roundhouse, obviously the bigger power was needed to handle the traffic than the normal Mikes' that were the normal power back then. I think if the NYC had made the cut between Lansing Jct.--the branch to Litchfield--and Quincy and kept the Ft. Wayne line intact to Jonesville to Jackson, you would still see lots of cars moving on the east end of the Old Road, certainly enough to keep a shortline hopping.

[Ben Higdon]

I've thought something along those lines too, that it would have made more sense to cut the Old Road between Sturgis and Coldwater, or between Coldwater and Quincy, and serve the Hillsdale area branches from Jackson. Along those lines, the trackage around Saginaw...Owosso to Swan Creek, Saginaw to Bay City, Midland, Middleton, Caro and Munger, is almost all still active. Seems like it could have provided enough traffic to support keeping the tracks from North Lansing to Owosso. Maybe the track just needed too much work?

[Railnut]

The main reason the "Bay City Sub" was cut up was due to track conditions (and the continuing problems at Yates)..I believe the state purchased the entire Rochester-Munger segment, but Millington south was removed.
The Saginaw(Paines)-Owosso line is that way it is now, because of the GTW wanting to limit competition in the Saginaw Area..could you imagine the GLC handling traffic between Saginaw and Durand?
Dave C

[tazer]

The Air line appears to have been relocated east of Homer and west of of Concord, it was moved to the south and closer to the Kalamazoo river .It could have been due to the topography of the area ?
Straight south of M60 (about a half mile) from where M60 and M99 meet and just to the west of 28 mile road you can see the the old r.o.w and from the air you can follow the original and the now abandoned r.o.w. and view both routes
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&F ... &encType=1 it .

[Todd Cline]

The Air line appears to have been relocated east of Homer and west of of Concord, it was moved to the south and closer to the Kalamazoo river .It could have been due to the topography of the area ?
Straight south of M60 (about a half mile) from where M60 and M99 meet and just to the west of 28 mile road you can see the the old r.o.w and from the air you can follow the original and the now abandoned r.o.w. and view both routes
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&F ... &encType=1 it .

That is very interesting... If they would have relocated it further away from the river, I would suspect they wanted to reduce a grade.(I assume the closer to the river, the lower the elevation). However, they relocated it closer to the river. I didn't see any really sharp curvature to the old roadbed, if anything, the newer route had a sharper curve. Are you sure that the southern alignment was the most recently used grade? It has been about 25 years since the airline was taken up, I have a feeling that the northern grade may have been the most recently used. (the farmers can quickly erase earthworks with their plows). If, indeed, the relocation took place in the 1950's upgrade of the airline, property lines could have been re-drawn in the decades since. Either way, it has sparked my interest. I'd certainly like to hear any further comments on this.

Todd

[tazer]

Are you sure that the southern alignment was the most recently used grade? It has been about 25 years since the airline was taken up, I have a feeling that the northern grade may have been the most recently used. (the farmers can quickly erase earthworks with their plows). If, indeed, the relocation took place in the 1950's upgrade of the airline, property lines could have been re-drawn in the decades since. Either way, it has sparked my interest. I'd certainly like to hear any further comments on this.

Todd
The southern alignment was the most recently used, I don't know if the relocation took place in the 50's but I rode the airline as a brakeman for a few years in the 70's and that is how it was then.
I never remember any of the old heads talking about it being moved and many of them hired out in the mid 40's
Looking at a topographical map the southern route looks flatter with less hills to climb. I wonder if the route was ever used ? Could it be possible that it was moved before any trains ever used it ? I live in the area and there are no towns or villages that ever exsisted on that route or the southern route for that matter the entire area is farmland . I'd say that it was re-surveyed and moved due to the topography ???
Tazer

[amtrakjackson]

I was looking at some old NYC M of W inter-divisional memos from the late 1930s, and it sounded like they were considering the downgrade of the section between Haires and Hanover even back then.

[penn central]

The main reason the "Bay City Sub" was cut up was due to track conditions (and the continuing problems at Yates)..I believe the state purchased the entire Rochester-Munger segment, but Millington south was removed.
The Saginaw(Paines)-Owosso line is that way it is now, because of the GTW wanting to limit competition in the Saginaw Area..could you imagine the GLC handling traffic between Saginaw and Durand?
Dave C

Hi railnut, Nice avetar by the way, Oh yes woudn't it of been something if the Michigan Interstate, TSBY, GLC would have gotten that segment, The only thing i remember anything close to them having been in that area as far as the MI is concerned is a string of Ann Arbor boxcars being stored north of st charles in the early 1980's, I remember that GTW owned the line from swan creek north, And MI owning it from swan creek south. Oh by the way i also remember an empty coal train going south near M-52 just north of st charles were M-52 gets very close to the roadbed for a short distance, This was about 1975, My how the times have changed, The reporting marks on the coal hoppers were PCCX, They were yellow with green rotery coupler ends. PCCX stood for Peabody Coal Corp. Thanks.

[Big T]

The main reason the "Bay City Sub" was cut up was due to track conditions (and the continuing problems at Yates).. Dave C

Dave, what are your refering to as the problems at Yates?

- Big T

[AARR]

Dave, what are your refering to as the problems at Yates?

I know there was a major derailment at Yates so I thought Dave was insunuating that there may have been more problems there.

[Railnut]

The main reason the "Bay City Sub" was cut up was due to track conditions (and the continuing problems at Yates).. Dave C

Dave, what are your refering to as the problems at Yates?

- Big T

There were 2 large derailments there (if I recall correctly) in the early 1970's..both were coal trains...the last one I believe ended up in the river (Clinton) and damaged the bridge. After the last one, the coal was run over the AA & St Charles line.

Hey PenCentral..thanks..glad we, in Michigan, have the Redwings and Tigers..

[MagnumForce]

The Old Roads fate was sealed with a 60 Mile straight section of track.

It was completely redundant after the Water Level Route was finished.

[MichiganRailRoader]

Any Pictures of the NYC Airline?

[tazer]

by MichiganRailRoader on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:31 pm

Any Pictures of the NYC Airline?

I posted a few and I would like to see some more pictures from different places

http://railroadfan.com/gallery/displayi ... pos=-53932

[Fred]

I believe the Air Line was built to route NY-Chicago thru trains (NY-2, NY-4, BC-1 and LS-3) thru Michigan. Bad blood at Niles?! The Rudy Bladell massacre at Jackson reinforced that notion.