Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

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~Z~
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Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by ~Z~ »

https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/tesla ... voy-today/
Per the article:
the truck can work in a convoy mode, with a three-truck convoy beating not only traditional diesel trucking, but also rail transport in terms of a cost per mile price.
Thoughts on how this might disrupt rail transport? Rail has always had the efficiency part as a strength, but if they can convoy trucks without needing additional drivers, and possibly cheaper per mile running them together, I can see this taking away a lot of intermodal traffic, at the very least.
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by hoborich »

Thoughts on how this might disrupt rail transport?
Thoughts on how this might disrupt highway traffic? What is the cost to recharge those truck batteries? And it doesn't appear they will be paying any diesel road taxes.
I was mildly amused that they can go from 0 to 60 with an 80 ton load in....wait for it......20 seconds! :lol: How many G forces is that on the driver?

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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by SousaKerry »

I call bull$h!t. They are using some pretty fuzzy math on that one. When you get down to it on strait and level roadway or rail the only big force you are dealing with is rolling resistance and the first thing you have to know to calculate that is the contact patch size. A railcar has a contact patch with the rail of about the size of a dime x 8 wheels. A semi has a contact patch the size of cereal bowl x 18 wheels.

Now I'm no Engineer but I play one at work, but witch one do you think has more rolling resistance. Don't even get me started on the average grades of rail vs highway or curvature...


I pretty sure what Elon is calculating is just Kilowatt hour output per cost of fuel. And yes a modern power plant is far more efficient at producing power. That fancy truck is more like a fireless steam engine then a diesel locomotive. It just stores power generated somewhere else.

Now if Mr. Musk wants to change the world go develop a battery powered locomotive, oh wait they already did that and it sucked.
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by PatAzo »

It'll be a short range vehicle. You won't be grabbing a sea container in Long beach and heading cross country unless you can swap batteries maybe every couple hundred miles. The federal government is already looking at converting road use taxes from a tax on fuel to a tax on every mile traveled (Europe already does this) so any energy tax savings won't last. They would save two drivers in the over-the-road portion of the three truck convoy but still need local drivers on both ends. The technical challenges will eventually be overcome and we'll have autonomous vehicles. One big hurdle is insurance. The insurance industry is saying no to insuring driver less vehicles. They don't have the a claims history or case law to estimate the risks. That will be overcome too but could easily negate the two driers labor savings in the scenario in the article.

There is no technology in the driver-less truck that can not be applied to rail. Rail with a more separated right of way and lower rolling resistance of steel wheel on steel rail. The technology has existed to years that would eliminate the engineer but the regulatory environment won't allow it. If we can have a driver-less truck why not a driver less train? Consider the old integral train proposal John Kneiling championed back in 70's and 80's. Why not battery powered deep well cars that drive themselves terminal to terminal? The bottle neck on rail isn't the mainline it's the terminals. Instead of two mile long land barges showing up needing a place to go, why not small blocks of autonomous cars that can run themselves straight to their destination?

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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by PatAzo »

SousaKerry wrote:Now if Mr. Musk wants to change the world go develop a battery powered locomotive, oh wait they already did that and it sucked.
Or turn a profit...Tesla posted $617M third quarter loss on $3B in revenue with competition on the horizon.

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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Sorry guys, the Tesla math isn't as fuzzy as you're making it out to be. They figured a number for cost per mile to ship by rail, and then calculated the same number for their truck. As long as those two numbers are accurate, then they're in fact on the cusp of beating rail on a mile-for-mile basis. The physics are already fully baked into their analysis.

Sounds like a couple of you need to watch the unveil or at least read the specs, since clearly you guys haven't. This isn't a half-baked urban delivery truck. This is a serious over-the-road idea which appears to be a solid item, if they can get it out the door in a reasonable timeframe and at a profit.

A tl:dr version of the specs to refute some of the comments above: the truck can get 500 miles at max gross weight, and then with a 30-minute recharge go another 400 miles. The idea is that 500 miles is about 8 hours, the time at which truckers must legally take a half-hour break anyways. So the idea is that you charge while loading/before departure, and then recharge on your break. The truck can go longer than the driver, so the charge shouldn't be an issue time-wise once the charging stations are setup. And on that front, Tesla is promising $0.07 per kWH for pricing on recharging at their facilities, which are to be solar-powered. With the battery at about 1 megawatt, a 500-mile charge should be about $70.

If the specs and pricing are as-promised, this will be a serious competitor. It won't beat rail in most bulk cases, especially if states start charging by the ton-mile instead of for fuel. But it will be at least as good as traditional trucking over the span of one million miles driven.
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by PatAzo »

I in fact did watch the unveil. Where Musk pointed out 80% of truck trips are 250 miles or less. That part of the efficiency was regenerative braking (which yields it's best advantage in short trip and urban usage). I saw Musk claim the electric truck will be 30¢ cheaper a mile to operate than diesel trucks but no data behind the numbers. That he guarantees 7¢ wholesale electricity "any where in the world". I saw him compare the drag coefficient for the Tesla truck at 1/2 a diesel truck. Nothing there the diesel makers can't copy and most of the over the road power goes to moving air. I did look at his figure of using less than 2kWh per mile and work that back to horse power. Yes electric vehicles are coming and Tesla is a leader in technology. But the solar farms, mega chargers and production batteries have yet to be built. Musk didn't address how he'll charge the thousands of trucks traveling around here everyday in the winter when it's cloudy all day. Some day...

Back to Z's question to the impact on rail. There is nothing with this truck, batteries, aerodynamics, even the thermonuclear explosion proof glass that cannot adapted to rail and take advantage of the lower rolling resistance of steel wheel on rails.

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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by GreatLakesRailfan »

Considering the proliferation of wireless charging technology in consumer product applications, I can't help wondering if there would be a practical application of that technology with the electric trucks. As long as the trucks are restricted to simply replacing the existing diesel trucks, it makes sense to take a break every so many hours to recharge, thus giving the 98.6 in the seat a required break from driving.

But...with the subsequent push for automation in this field, how long do we really expect a driver to be required to get the truck over the road?

If the trucking industry can replace the drivers with computers, at least for the most time consuming aspects of the trip, does anyone really doubt they will? But...a computer doesn't need a federally mandated break after so many hours on the road, which means the recharging period is no longer a happy coincidence- it's time the truck could be on the road earning revenue.

If the sky's the limit, and it sure seems to be these days, it seems like a dedicated wireless charging pad could be installed in a dedicated (truck) lane on major highways, to be used only by qualified electric trucks. In my mind's eye, I see a two mile or so pad on the surface of the highway, almost resembling the track pans the New York Central used in Western Ohio to refill the tenders on mainline trains back in the steam days.
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by Saturnalia »

While autonomous driving trucks and cars are the future, I think we're a long way off from implementing them to the point that drivers are no longer required to be on board, because there is a literal ton of regulation that needs to be written.

Autonomous vehicles will require re-writing how we train drivers/road users, insure vehicles and occupants, inspect equipment and maintain highways. Until those provisions are fully in place, I think that by and large it'll be impossible for the government to remove the de facto driver requirement.

And this is government regulation...so it is a lock to take forever and be problematic for an iteration or two...bah humbug.
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by J T »

Neat.
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by Schteinkuh »

J T wrote:Neat.
What would this place be without JT?
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

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More relevant :P :lol:
Schteinkuh wrote:
J T wrote:Neat.
What would this place be without JT?
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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by Jetlink »

Schteinkuh wrote:
J T wrote:Neat.
What would this place be without JT?
Less Neat
interested in trains

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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by AARR »

Grammar and Spelling would suck :lol:
Schteinkuh wrote:
J T wrote:Neat.
What would this place be without JT?
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: Tesla Semitruck convoy more efficient than rail?

Unread post by J T »

Jetlink wrote:
Schteinkuh wrote:
J T wrote:Neat.
What would this place be without JT?
Less Neat
:lol: :D
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