1 man crews.

[M.D.Bentley]

Not wanting to take away from the oil train disaster thread. CSX.CO. made a comment about 1 man crews. "I don't necessarily see anything inherently 'dangerous' about 1 man assignments. Plenty of terrible conductors out there that you'd be better off 'alone' anyway." Well, not knowing what his status is ( rrfan,foamer, rr employee,etc.) and not wanting to get into a pizzin match . ONE of the single WORST things that the railroads did was to remove the human element from the railroad scene ! Whether it be closing the towers, reduced crews, reducing track gang sizes, eliminating clerks, the list is long. They say it is to cut cost,save some money ( to line their pockets with ). Most 1man crews no longer accomplish the work that they use to when they had a brakeman on the job and it takes longer ( savings?) . It's hard to be in 2 places at one time ( and am good at what I do ). With a good field man on the job, we could do the work of two crews, no problem ! NOT anymore. It's just not safe ! NOW the same could be said about some engineers. But the FRA recently stated the they support two man crews ( engineer & conductor ) . Nothing like having a second set of eye's up in the cab, or to handle the radio traffic and the forms on the fly. But I sure the HELL would want someone near by if I was to have a medical emergency. Sure the alerter will bring the train to a stop. And as long as they didn't hit anybody at a crossing , the company would be happy. NOW tell the dead guys family that if a 2nd man was in the cab that they might still be alive and see how that goes over with them. Back when I hired out on the railroad, the human element saved a lot of jobs and lives. From tower operators to track guys and everyone in between. Everyone was looking out. NOT anymore. Their gone, numbers reduced to almost nothing.

[AARR]

CSX.CO. is a rr employee

[Toppysager]

Yeah I'm not saying we need 5 men crews like back in the old days, but a number like 3 I think would be a bit more appropriate, even two is fine, But 1??? It seems a bit liable to me. Especially with the amount of responsibility takes to run something that ways 40 million pounds and is possibly carrying explosive materials through populated areas. With that you are just asking for trouble.

[ConrailMan5]

Made me think of an article I read in an old trains mag from the 90's. part of the story mentioned a 1 man CSX night yard crew. The RCO was a 10 year vet. He was relacing a broken coupler. Asked the car dept. for help. They said no. So he went to replace it alone.. Back to the head end, he was very vulnerable. They said IIRC, that he must have knocked the RCO controller. The result was the front half of the train rolling back on him, effectively coupling him , killing him. Wasn't a matter of a poor choice, just a mistake. But because there were no more eyes in that yard to warn him, he was killed.
EDIT:I know you all ready quoted me CSX_CO, but I just found the issue and it was from the the year 2000

[CSX_CO]

Not wanting to take away from the oil train disaster thread. CSX.CO. made a comment about 1 man crews. "I don't necessarily see anything inherently 'dangerous' about 1 man assignments. Plenty of terrible conductors out there that you'd be better off 'alone' anyway." Well, not knowing what his status is ( rrfan,foamer, rr employee,etc.) and not wanting to get into a pizzin match . ONE of the single WORST things that the railroads did was to remove the human element from the railroad scene ! Whether it be closing the towers, reduced crews, reducing track gang sizes, eliminating clerks, the list is long.

Give me a break. Closing Towers was a bad move? Really? We should continue to be railroading in the 19th Century because of the 'human element'? You do realize that the drug and alcohol use that was rampant in T&E service, wasn't limited to T&E right? Plenty of bad tower operators out there, drunks, sleepers, etc. Technology has progressed to the point where a manned interlocking isn't necessary. Computers and sensors can do a better 'roll by' inspection then any human ever could. Detectors 'talk' to each other now, and a wheelset that starts trending towards failure gets set out without question for inspection.

You don't need 5 guys on a crew with the advancement of radio technology. I don't care what your argument is. There isn't enough work on most trains to justify 5 guys. 5 guys was necessary to properly flag, pass signals, etc in the absence of radios. Even with 5 man crews, once radios started being issued, usually one or two guys were doing the work, while the others were drinking, sleeping, etc. There isn't enough work on most trains to justify 3, and on "Point A to Point B" runs, there isn't much justification of more than 1 guy in the cab. Especially when the level of moaning from conductors when they are required to get out and 'do something'.

There are plenty of examples of worthless employees. I would rather have a 1 man crew of a motivated, safe, and hard working employee, then a two man crew of 'bitter old heads'. I was good at what I did too on the ground, and a third man usually just slowed me down. I would have to repeat the explanation of moves, wait for them to realize they needed to throw a switch, etc. Also one additional person for me to 'keep track of' to make sure they weren't fouling equipment, doing something stupid, throwing the wrong switch, etc.

You're also mistaking that the railroads are putting 1 man on everything, and expecting them to 'do it all'. That's not how it works. "Local" assignments still get two guys, unless the railroad is utterly stupid. One is mobile in a truck, driving from location to location, prepping for the work to be done, able to drive to protect shoves, etc. Its just going between "Point A and Point B" that there is one guy in the cab. Congratulations on you staying a wake and being alert all the time. It is unfortunate that 100% of ALL conductors do that.

Also, in so far as a medical emergency on a train, if you have a heart attack between crossings, out in the middle of no where, medical help probably isn't going to reach you in time anyway. I believe you work in Detroit, with the luxury of being within sight of 'civilization' for most of your trip. There are plenty of places, even in the midwest, where you are 15 miles between crossings. Only way in or out would be by helicopter if you expect to live. From MP 38 on the St. Louis line, the next grade crossing isn't until ~MP 50. There are only a couple of overpasses, and they are tough to get to via car. So, you may be screwed no matter how many people you have in the cab. I guess the only solution to that problem, regardless of crew size, is for everyone to be hooked up to a network of medical sensors that is monitored. Sort of like Astronauts. Once they detect a medical anomaly, it can throw up a red flag. That's the only way to truly be prepared for a 'medical emergency' out there. You prepared for that invasion of your 'privacy' for your safety?

Perhaps you have heard of more, but I don't think in my 13 year career I have EVER heard of someone having a heart attack on an engine. Heard of several fellow employees that died in the bed at the hotels, but rarely, if ever, on the train.

Practice Safe CSX

[CSX_CO]

Made me think of an article I read in an old trains mag from the 90's. part of the story mentioned a 1 man CSX night yard crew. The RCO was a 10 year vet. He was relacing a broken coupler. Asked the car dept. for help. They said no. So he went to replace it alone.. Back to the head end, he was very vulnerable. They said IIRC, that he must have knocked the RCO controller. The result was the front half of the train rolling back on him, effectively coupling him , killing him. Wasn't a matter of a poor choice, just a mistake. But because there were no more eyes in that yard to warn him, he was killed.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but CSX didn't really take to RCO technology until after the Conrail Split. They entered into a contract with CANAC in the early 2000's to start equipping RCO engines. Really, it was only in the mid 90's that technology became feasible with the WC, CN, and INRD 'pioneering' the use of it. Finally took widespread hold on the other US Class One's late in the 90's or early 2000's. When I went through Conductor Training, I don't recall any RCO specific rules, and that was in 2000. Wasn't until a year or two later did they start putting out RCO rules.

FYI, it is against the rules for a RCO foreman to replace a knuckle by themselves. You have to get a Utility Employee or have the car department lock the track and replace the knuckle.

One of the last T&E Fatalities on the western end of the system occurred at Barr Yard. RCO Foreman was standing in the GAUGE in front of their locomotive, and RAN THEMSELVES over. If you are standing in the gauge, and direct the movement to start, you're going to get hit no matter what method is moving the throttle.

I've had a few engineers 'move' a cut of cars on their own, without my directing them to. Heard lots of stories where an engineer starts to 'think' and does something stupid putting the safety of the conductor in jeopardy. Lots of ways to get killed out there. Problem is, humans aren't perfect. As I said in my previous post, I would rather have 1 safe, hard working, and dedicated employee then trying to work with some other D-bag and getting every one to work together.

Practice Safe CSX

[CSX_CO]

With a good field man on the job, we could do the work of two crews, no problem ! NOT anymore. It's just not safe !

FYI, you doing the work of 'two crews' with 3 guys (engineer, conductor, brakeman) was cutting your own throat too. You argue that cutting jobs is 'bad', but yet brag you could do the work of 2 crews yourself, with half the man power?

Why is that a point of pride for you, but when the railroads take the next step that is 'bad bad bad'?

Practice Safe CSX

[CSX_CO]

Perhaps you have heard of more, but I don't think in my 13 year career I have EVER heard of someone having a heart attack on an engine. Heard of several fellow employees that died in the bed at the hotels, but rarely, if ever, on the train.

I guess in the interest of 'safety' in a medical emergency, and the propensity of employees to die at the hotel in their sleep, I guess we should bunk up together too. After all, if one guy in the cab is unsafe by themselves, surely being by yourself in your room is just as unsafe.

Practice Safe CSX

[Jochs]

I believe you work in Detroit, with the luxury of being within sight of 'civilization' for most of your trip.

Bad example....I heard it takes at least an hour to get help when you call 911 in Detroit....the largest US City to file for Bankruptcy.

However, I get CSX_CO's point on how having one man crews is no different than 3 or 4 when there's a medical emergency, especially in places out west like in the middle of the desert or prairies out west.

Perhaps you have heard of more, but I don't think in my 13 year career I have EVER heard of someone having a heart attack on an engine. Heard of several fellow employees that died in the bed at the hotels, but rarely, if ever, on the train.

I think it is safe to say most railroad related deaths are a result of human error, by railroad employees and careless motorists and trespassers, rather than a result of health reasons.

[M.D.Bentley]

I said "could". I didn't say we did ! There may be a bunch of bitter old heads and useless new guys where you work ( and I've seen the same over here) but with crew members that are properly briefed and seasoned can accomplish alot more than one man without question. YOU may like working alone. And at times it's fine. But as the rule, no thanks you can keep it ! There are people out there that are better and worse and faster and slower and whatever. But you cannot tell me that one man on the ground switching 100 cars into 23 tracks can be done safely and efficiently ! Even the stupid RCO has two men on the ground ( which is a different story for a different time.) . I NEVER said the railroad industry hasn't come along way in safety , technology, drug testing, rules, etc. We went from rule books that would fit into you back pocket to so many that you need a backpack to carry them all ! BUT everyone on the RR needs to be tested, without question. Hell at one time you didn't need a license to run a engine ! And any member of the crew was capable of running it. I grew up around the railroad / heavy industry. Some industries produced more alcoholics / drug users than products / services. YES we've come along way baby ! ( to steal a phrase ). Man in the tower /track side, I've witnessed a new engineer on a work train that was not clear on instructions from the dispatcher. Get into trouble at a local interlocking. The operator came out and flagged the train down to talk to the new engineer. Can a computer or dispatcher do that ? HELL NO ! The engineer would have been out on the street for at least 1 year if the operator had not been there. Think his family would like daddy sitting at home for a year with no pay ? I've also seen older guy's get in trouble and been saved by the human element. I have to wear many hats at work. Conductor,brakeman,car inspector, car repairman,clerk,trackman, but only receive the pay of one man ! IF I wanted to sweep switches or oil them I would have hired out in the track dept. IF I wanted to repair railroad cars I would have hired out in the car dept. Get my point. Yes, I am required to do some of these things on a limited /emergency basis. Even now they have forced us to become yardmasters buy giving us a computer to carry around to screw things up that much more. O look another hat ! But no more pay ! ( must be something wrong here I guess I'll figure it out later) Just remember that if you prune all the branches off of the tree it will die. I have been telling my trainmasters for years that if they keep cutting job/people that they will not longer be needed.

[Norm]

@ M.D. Bentley,

Just for clarification, I take no position pro or anti union, but do have concerns about safety. I also realize there is no perfect answer to any situation.

For the sake of discussion let's assume you're aboard a commercial airliner. The normal crew these days is two. Even though airliners are heavily automated things can (and do) go wrong that require human intervention. There's also the possibility of one crew member getting sick while in control of the plane. OK; so we eliminate the First Officer (AKA co-pilot) leaving only one man up front. Would you like to be a passenger aboard that plane if the pilot were incapacitated? Sure, the plane can land itself, but someone has to get it to the airport first.

I think that analogy applies to road trains as well. Sure the train will stop if the alerter is not activated, but if the engineer is sick enough he can't call for help where does the situation go from there?

[esprrfan]

Not to add fuel to a fire just pointing out in the last 2 years out of Toledo there have been 2 heart attacks and 1 seizure involving engineers on trains underway. Each one was brought to help at a road crossing by a conductor 1 used "Big red" the other two were brought to a controlled stop by conductors who were taught better methods of stopping by old heads. Each time medical people were already en-route.

[Hogger1225]

Hmmmm. 13 years makes one a seasoned veteran?

[AARR]

Hmmmm. 13 years makes one a seasoned veteran?

CSX started on the ground and has worked his way up. While not everyone may agree with him his insights and opinions, at least too me, are informed.

[Typhoon]

@ M.D. Bentley,

Just for clarification, I take no position pro or anti union, but do have concerns about safety. I also realize there is no perfect answer to any situation.

For the sake of discussion let's assume you're aboard a commercial airliner. The normal crew these days is two. Even though airliners are heavily automated things can (and do) go wrong that require human intervention. There's also the possibility of one crew member getting sick while in control of the plane. OK; so we eliminate the First Officer (AKA co-pilot) leaving only one man up front. Would you like to be a passenger aboard that plane if the pilot were incapacitated? Sure, the plane can land itself, but someone has to get it to the airport first.

I think that analogy applies to road trains as well. Sure the train will stop if the alerter is not activated, but if the engineer is sick enough he can't call for help where does the situation go from there?

Awful comparison. If something happens to an aircraft crew while inflight, the plane can not just stop. It will no doubt crash, putting everyone inside and on the ground in danger. If something happends to a train crew, 99% of the time it will roll to a stop.

[Typhoon]

Hmmmm. 13 years makes one a seasoned veteran?

Yep.

[Typhoon]

Man in the tower /track side, I've witnessed a new engineer on a work train that was not clear on instructions from the dispatcher. Get into trouble at a local interlocking. The operator came out and flagged the train down to talk to the new engineer. Can a computer or dispatcher do that ? HELL NO ! The engineer would have been out on the street for at least 1 year if the operator had not been there.

Not too long ago, I witnessed a tower operator drop a signal on a train. He had fallen asleep, and when he woke up from the dispatcher yelling at him into the block line, he took away the signal in a panicked reaction. The train was right at the signal, the engineer dumped it, fearing something had passed a red on the intersecting line. The train, a loaded ethanol train, broke a knuckle. The engineer got a month on the street for poor train handling. Would a computer or dispatcher drop a signal like that, HELL NO! I bet that engineers kids wished the tower had been bulldozed. While I am not in favor of one man crew road trains, operators for the most part have served their purpose, and need to go away.

[M.D.Bentley]

Doing more with less. Management wants the crews to do more work with less members on the crew. Saving the company extra locomotive, fuel, healthcare, pension expenses. ANY old guy worth his salt, won't "go with the flow" like the new hires that are trying to impress someone ( not sure who thou ? ). EVERYONE that works out here is different. Some are just for a paycheck ( YES REALLY ! ) and ride on the backs of others Others will make it a career and do the best job they can from the time they hire out until the day they hang up their boots. Progress they call it. Change. The railroads are in a constant state of flux . Adapt or die . We've all seen it , in one form or another. Automation is not always the answer.

[CSX_CO]

I don't use the whole "What if I'm alone and have medical trouble" as a counter argument. Plenty of times when you're 'alone' (even at home) and could have the same issue. My wife could be sleeping, and I have a heart attack. I could die on the floor if I can't wake her or reach a phone. Out for a walk on a trail, same thing. Driving to work, and have a medical emergency I am 'alone' and only get help if someone sees me.

So, if you're going to say its unsafe to be in a locomotive by yourself, then its unsafe to be by yourself, period.

Hmmmm. 13 years makes one a seasoned veteran?

5 to 8 years makes you an 'old head' anymore. Part of the reason why the new operating agreements have started to favor the younger majority, instead of the older minority of employees.

Practice Safe CSX

[Hogger1225]

Gee, I only spent 40 years on the job.