Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Give us a run down of what you saw, post pictures if you'd like...any info is welcome.
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J T
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by J T »

Norm wrote:Directred to Don.

Are we positive this dude is a certified railroad cop or not? They have to be certified by the state as such, and do have full police powers. If not, he is an imposter.

I can't imagine a short line such as ADBF having a full time cop.
Maybe he is and he was pissed off that day for having to throw switches. :lol: Or maybe he had a fight with his wife before he left home that morning and it gave him a bad case of PMS. Or maybe....
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by AARR »

hoborich wrote:
Was the ADBF officer having a bad day and took it out on a railfan? I am sure that can happen to almost anyone.
Police offcers are supposed to be professionals. One wonders how far they can go taking it out on a railfan.
Yes, and I agree 100%. And in a perfect world all professionals would act professional. I tend to give people a little bit of slack because the last time I checked I did not pass the "walking on water" test.

The point I have been trying to make to ADBF, and quite frankly I do not think they see it my way, is that railfans are a potential customer base because of their highly regarded dinner train. Treating railfans with a heavy hand without evidence of serious wrong-doing (theft, vandalism, etc.) brings about bad PR and will hurt the dinner train business.

Other railroads have the same issues and liabilities with railfans and conduct themselves in such a way that does not alienate railfans. So maybe ADBF can tweak their procedures a bit a lighten up a little on average Joe foamer who just really admires their engines, etc. and save the more intense treatment for those who are commiting something more hanus than admiring ADBF's trains.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by Typhoon »

justalurker66 wrote:BTW: Here's one more law for those claiming "rights" ----

MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 300 of 1949


257.674 Prohibited parking; exceptions; bus loading zone; violation as civil infraction.

Sec. 674.

(1) A vehicle shall not be parked, except if necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or in compliance with the law or the directions of a police officer or traffic-control device, in any of the following places:

(i) Within 50 feet of the nearest rail of a railroad crossing.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28by ... cl-257-674
Checkmate.

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Scooterb
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by Scooterb »

Well if thats what he is enforcing he better look at Beagle and Main in downtown Blissfield. Marked parallel parking whithin 30 feet of the nearest rail.


http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/#5003/ ... 8&pid=5874

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by Typhoon »

Scooterb wrote:Well if thats what he is enforcing he better look at Beagle and Main in downtown Blissfield. Marked parallel parking whithin 30 feet of the nearest rail.


http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/#5003/ ... 8&pid=5874

Marked is the key part of that statement.

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by GTW6401 »

This is good that you decided to share this information with the rest of the class on how ADBF is reacting to railfans.

Railroad photography hasn't been as enjoyable to me recently. ADBF is something I would consider shooting in the future, but I wont bother with a trip to Adrian anytime soon.

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by Scooterb »

Not to beat a dead horse but....
(i) Within 50 feet of the nearest rail of a railroad crossing.
It does not say anything about it being marked or unmarked.
Live by the law die by the law.

How many of us even knew of that law?

How many of us have parked in a curb cut/ 2 track to photograph trains,boats, sunsets, sunrises?

I go back to this (2) For purposes of this section, “right-of-way” means the track or roadbed owned by a railroad and that property owned by a railroad which is located on either side of its tracks and which is readily recognizable to a reasonable person as being railroad property or is reasonably identified as such by fencing, the existence of railroad tracks, or appropriate signs.

MCL 750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; penalty.

Any person who shall wilfully enter, upon the lands or premises of another without lawful authority, after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant, agent or servant of the owner or occupant, or any person being upon the land or premises of another, upon being notified to depart therefrom by the owner or occupant, the agent or servant of either, who without lawful authority neglects or refuses to depart therefrom, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 30 days or by a fine of not more than $50.00, or both, in the discretion of the court.

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Scooterb
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by Scooterb »

More on trespass law.

TRESPASS!

by: Clifford H. Bloom
Law, Weathers & Richardson, P.C.
Bridgewater Place
333 Bridge Street, N.W., Suite 800
Grand Rapids, Michigan 49504-5360 E-Mail: CliffBloom@lwr.com

Updated 05/10/2004 by MLSA-SERVICES\gytreeide

"Trespass" is the venturing onto the lands of another without permission. As many riparians well know, trespass is a common problem around lakes.

There are two types of trespass and related legal remedies - criminal trespass and civil trespass. Criminal trespass is what most lay people think of when they consider pursuing legal action against someone for trespass. There potentially three laws available whereby a trespasser can be prosecuted. First, under state law, trespass is illegal pursuant to several statutes. MCLA 750.552 is the general state statute for trespass. This statute prevents anyone from trespassing upon the premises of another after having been forbidden to do so. Violation of the statute is a criminal misdemeanor offense, punishable by a fine of up to $50.00 and 30 days in jail or both. There are also several statutes which make it illegal to trespass and to damage property, cut trees, destroy or take crops, etc. Under such statutes, someone who is found guilty of entering the Land of another without permission and destroying property is potentially liable for actual damages, and in some cases, even double or triple damages. See MCLA 600.2919,750.546 and 750.547. Second, some local municipalities (ie. cities, villages or townships) have their own trespass ordinances. Finally, the Michigan Recreational Trespass Act (MCLA 324.73101 et seq.) ("RTA") covers trespass involving recreational uses. Depending upon the statute under which a trespasser is prosecuted, conviction can either constitute a criminal misdemeanor or civil infraction offense. The RTA was also amended recently to add "teeth," such that the penalties have been beefed up significantly.

Unfortunately, many police agencies (i.e. county sheriff departments, city police officers, etc.) and prosecuting officials (i.e. county prosecutors, city or township attorneys, the Michigan Attorney General's office, etc.) are reluctant to prosecute trespassers—it is simply not a high priority in most jurisdictions. Many law enforcement officials will tell a complaining property owner that they cannot prosecute a trespasser until the offender trespasses a second time. Although under most laws it is not technically true that someone has to trespass a second time before they can be prosecuted, it is true that most laws require some type of prior notice. For example, MCLA 750.552 requires that the trespass occur after the trespasser has been "forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant" or that the trespasser neglects o r refuses to leave when requested by the owner or occupant . The RTA requires that a property be posted with no trespassing signs or at least be fenced prior to a violation occurring but it does not require any other notice to the trespasser. Some local ordinances do not require any prior notice at all. There are other reasons why law enforcement agencies are often reluctant to prosecute trespassers. First, trespass claims have unfortunately been used as fodder in domestic and neighborhood disputes. Second, it is often difficult for law enforcement officials to determine whether someone has trespassed due to uncertainty about boundary lines - this is particularly true with regards to bottomlands under a Lake or upland boundary lines which are in dispute. Third, such disputes often involve one person's word against another's - the offender claims that he or she was given oral permission to be on the property while the owner denies that such permission was given. Such disputes are often viewed as more civil law matters with which law enforcement should not become involved.

The other remedy for trespass is a civil lawsuit. In such cases, law enforcement agencies are not involved and the individual property owner must file a lawsuit against a trespasser at his or her own expense. In some cases, the property owner can recover damages, even where little harm has been done to the property involved. See the RTA and MCLA 600.2919,750.546 and 750.547. In most civil lawsuits for trespass, however, damages are rarely awarded, and the goal of the property owner is to obtain a court order precluding the offender from trespassing again under pain of contempt of court and possibly jail.

Around Lakes, the issue often arises as to whether it is trespassing on a riparian's bottomlands when someone else places a dock, shore station or raft anchor on the riparian's bottomlands or walks on the riparian's bottomlands without permission. Under Michigan law, most riparian property owners own the bottomlands adjacent to their properties toward the center of the lake in a pie-shaped fashion. While both riparians and members of the public have the right to freely float on the water over another's bottomlands and even to temporarily anchor thereon pursuant to navigation, people do not have the right to place docks, shorestations or raft anchors on the bottomlands of another without permission, or to moor boats other than temporarily on such bottomlands. Furthermore, one cannot normally walk on the bottomlands of another without permission. Unfortunately, law enforcement agencies will almost never prosecute bottomlands trespass cases due to their lack of knowledge of riparian law and the difficulty of ascertaining bottomlands boundaries. Only a county circuit court in a full-blown civil lawsuit can determine true bottomlands boundaries, which is an expensive and complicated process. Accordingly, the ultimate relief for the owner of bottomlands who experiences bottomlands trespassing is a private civil lawsuit.

The various trespass laws differ regarding whether or not a property must be posted before a trespasser can be pursued. The RTA requires signage at every visible point, or, alternately fencing Some local ordinances do not require any signage or fencing while others do. To be safe, it is best to post your property, utilize fencing or use both methods if you are concerned about trespassing. If you are dealing with a relatively small lot, a confined area or lake bottomlands where fencing or posting is not practical, either you or your attorney should send a warning letter to whomever has been a trespasser in the past warning that person not to trespass or you will take appropriate legal action. Obviously, you should keep a copy of the letter in your file and preferably send it by registered mail to the potential trespasser so you can later prove that he or she had prior notice if court action should be necessary.

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by bctrainfan »

Thanks all for some good info, especially PatC, AARR, Railfandudes dad, Scooterb.

Hopefully ADBF re-thinks their zero tolerance mindset, much better to save that for people that are really causing problems. Seems like railfans are usually pretty harmless and provide good moral support to the shortlines, if not outright helping with new business or expansion of their operations. Especially for ADBF with their dinner trains etc, gotta believe their biggest customer base is railfans!

Loco, good luck and let us know what happens. And everybody else, be careful out there! :)

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by justalurker66 »

Scooterb wrote:Unfortunately, many police agencies (i.e. county sheriff departments, city police officers, etc.) and prosecuting officials (i.e. county prosecutors, city or township attorneys, the Michigan Attorney General's office, etc.) are reluctant to prosecute trespassers—it is simply not a high priority in most jurisdictions.
Apparently this railroad police agency is not reluctant to prosecute. I don't see how the presence and interest of railfans helps or hurts shortlines, other than the liability issues of allowing people to be on the property. If they willingly look the other way and someone gets hurt who gets the blame? Even when the railroad is 100% not at fault they get the blame for incidents on their property ... so why open themselves up to the risk?

I am glad for the railroads that do not use a heavy hand in enforcement.

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MagnumForce
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by MagnumForce »

Apparently this railroad police agency is not reluctant to prosecute. I don't see how the presence and interest of railfans helps or hurts shortlines, other than the liability issues of allowing people to be on the property.
Well the fact that this shortline runs a highly profitable dinner and tourist operation...

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

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Scooterb wrote:Furthermore, one cannot normally walk on the bottomlands of another without permission. Unfortunately, law enforcement agencies will almost never prosecute bottomlands trespass cases due to their lack of knowledge of riparian law and the difficulty of ascertaining bottomlands boundaries. Only a county circuit court in a full-blown civil lawsuit can determine true bottomlands boundaries, which is an expensive and complicated process.
Interestingly a related news item from today exemplifying just how contentious these things can get (and how "unclear" it can be because people have such differing perspectives on it):

http://morningjournal.com/articles/2011 ... de=default

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by MDH »

justalurker66 wrote:I don't see how the presence and interest of railfans helps or hurts shortlines, other than the liability issues of allowing people to be on the property.
It's all a matter of perspective...

Having a positive relationship with railfans can help a shortline (or any railroad) in a number of ways. Aside from having friendly "eyes & ears" watching the property that can report problems or dangerous situations they can leverage railfans for good PR even saving real corporate dollars. For example, the W&LE uses contributed photos at very low cost to produce their corporate calendar which allows them to cherry pick good shots from around the system. Paying a pro photographer to get all the same pictures would easily run more than $10,000 (because it'd take multiple days + travel to get all of the locations, not even factoring in getting a train with good power in good sun, etc.) BTW I'm not just pulling numbers out of my rear end on that, I've "paid the bills" and seen one day photo shoots with a pro for corporate work of upwards of $5,000. Other railroads use similar strategies and can save money using "fan" shots for other corporate advertising, marketing and internal uses aside from just calendars. That's not even factoring in the general "goodwill" in the communities they serve through having a positive relationship with fans and those communities. Most companies care about how they're perceived because it can heavily influence community reaction when things go wrong.

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Norm
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by Norm »

JT,

I've been wondering the same thing.

In order to become a railroad cop they have to pass through the same curriculum as the state police. Only then do they have the full authority of police power.

I haven't railfanned them in a long time and have not been hassled. OTOH I would question this dude's authority. Seems to me he has a 'power complex'.
Norm

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by hoborich »

I have not, and would not question the dudes authority. He most likely has the authority, despite his not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, and possessing little common sense to go with the gun and badge.
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by AARR »

hoborich wrote:...despite his not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, and possessing little common sense to go with the gun and badge.
Maybe he is just doing what he is hired to do. I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes us employees are asked to do things that make sense to our bosses and are good for our companies but does not make sense to people on the outside who do not have the thinking behind the policy. And sometimes getting a company to change policy that may not be so good, if they are even willing to change, takes a lot of patience, time, and persistance.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by hoborich »

AARR, You're much too kind. Pat C tells us this guy enjoys spoiling our day. And he is our resident authority on everything there is to know about cops! :lol:
AS STATED BEFORE - DO NOT TRESPASS ON ADBF PROPERTY !!!!!!! IF YOU ARE CAUGHT, THEIR COP WILL MAKE YOUR DAY MISERABLE AND ENJOY DOING IT.
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AARR
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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by AARR »

hoborich wrote:AARR, You're much too kind. Pat C tells us this guy enjoys spoiling our day. And he is our resident authority on everything there is to know about cops! :lol:
I make an effort to understand both sides of an issue. I admit I am not always successful. And even when I get both sides I may even be confused more than when I only had one side of the story :lol: :oops:
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by MNE Mec »

What i don't understand is what happened to the policy of checking in with the office or at least calling the office and asking permission to check out the property. I had two young men with cameras attempting to plan unknown activity at my location and i almost called the cops. But the thought would not have crossed my mind had they announced their intentions like civilized, responsibal adults.

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Re: Adrian & Blissfield 9/9/11

Unread post by MagnumForce »

Why would they need to contact anyone if they are on public or non railroad property? They have absolutely no responsibility to do so. Most of the time when I go out to foam I have no idea where I will end up, how would you suggest I get a hold of the main office?

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