Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

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Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby bnsfben » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:37 pm

Last weekend there were "frogs," what ever the things are called where both mains acctually touch, near the silver signal box near the diamond. I also saw a lot of small rails. Also some ties.

Do you guys think this acctually means a new diamond? Because why else would that stuff all of a sudden show up?
Thanks
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby CSX_CO » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:44 pm

I think it means they are going to rip the diamond out. Those short sections of rails will be for where the diamond used to be.

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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby SD80MAC » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:13 pm

CSX_CO wrote:I think it means they are going to rip the diamond out. Those short sections of rails will be for where the diamond used to be.

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I really can't see them ripping it out, but they have been talking about replacing it for a while now, sounds like they're finally getting to it.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby Shorthaul » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:59 pm

CSX_CO wrote:I think it means they are going to rip the diamond out. Those short sections of rails will be for where the diamond used to be.

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If there are frogs, than they are not removing the diamonds, just replacing them.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby TrainWatcher » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:01 pm

That must be the new "High-Speed" Diamond I have heard being mentioned.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby GLC 392 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:09 pm

YES they are replacing them and no they are not high speed diamonds i have been meaning to post this but oh well.... its just your standard diamonds.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby railohio » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:10 pm

What's so exciting about doing routine maintenance? Deshler gets a new diamond about every third year.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby GTWChris » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:15 pm

Now I know I am saying the opposite of what GLC 392 said. I heard that this fall CN would be replacing the diamonds with new diamonds. These new diamonds are what everyone are calling “High Speed” diamonds I don’t know if these diamonds actually mean higher speeds. I do know that the new diamonds will not have the classic diamond sounds to them when trains go over them.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby redside20 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:23 pm

also top speed for your run of the mill freight train and it is mandated by FRA standards mind you is 55 mph for general freight and 60-70 mph for intermodals. So the trains aren't going to go any faster over these new diamonds unless they magically become bullet trains or monorails. besides this is the GTW mainline, it certainly won't be mistaken for the Santa Fe,Acela or any European bullet train.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby BerkshireKid » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:33 pm

So I did some research, like Google and my Track Standards and Rule book, and came up with these speed limits Luke. Grand Trunk is Class 4 if i'm remebering correctly from text I have.
Not sure how you got 55mph for frieght and 70-80 for intermodal but heres the numbers.............

49 CFR 213.9 and 213.307

Sec. 213.9 Classes of track: operating speed limits.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and
Secs. 213.57(b), 213.59(a), 213.113(a), and 213.137(b) and (c), the
following maximum allowable operating speeds apply--
[In miles per hour]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The maximum The maximum
Over track that meets all of the allowable allowable
requirements prescribed in this operating speed operating speed
part for-- for freight for passenger
trains is-- trains is--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excepted track.................... 10 N/A
Class 1 track..................... 10 15
Class 2 track..................... 25 30
Class 3 track..................... 40 60
Class 4 track..................... 60 80
Class 5 track..................... 80 90
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sec. 213.307 Class of track: operating speed limits.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and
Secs. 213.329, 213.337(a) and 213.345(c), the following maximum
allowable operating speeds apply:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over track that meets all of the The maximum allowable
requirements prescribed in this subpart operating speed for trains
for-- is--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class 6 track............................ 110 m.p.h.
Class 7 track............................ 125 m.p.h.
Class 8 track............................ 160 m.p.h.
Class 9 track............................ 200 m.p.h.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby EJ&ESDM809 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:47 pm

If they are repairing the diamond in Durand, it's about time, the old diamond needs to go! Sure, diamonds have a neat sound but in Durand's case, it's also a derailment waiting to happen. This is a video I got last summer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9DGuW0M75k

You can see the diamonds sparking! The diamonds at Joliet used to do the same thing, and BNSF replaced them. The thing is trains move more than double the speed through Durand as opposed to Joliet. When the diamonds start sparking, it's time for new ones.

One thing is for sure, the sound of a train going over the diamonds at 45MPH is ear shattering! I don't see any way CN would completely remove the diamonds, it would interfere pretty badly with operations there.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby hobojim » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:59 pm

The nice thing about the sound of the train hitting the diamonds is that we could count the number of cars in the train from my house 1/2 mile away from the diamonds. I love the northern Michigan woods but I miss the train sounds of Durand.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby Mr. Tops » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:26 am

The diamonds your talking about are flange-bearing or OWLS diamonds (One-way Low-speed). I'm not sure why they didn't opt for this in Durand as N-S traffic doesn't move through at more than 10 mph, usually. The way this works is the track that will be the low-speed line is actually a few inches (if that) higher than the high-speed line and rides up and over the rail of the high-speed line. There are no joints or frogs on the the high-speed line, however there is a small groove from the flanges of trains crossing on the low-speed line

Here are some photos of a OWLS diamond on UP in Chenoa, IL (photos by Jon Roma):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonroma/14 ... 627537971/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonroma/14 ... 627537971/

As for train speeds, a train has a hierarchy of speeds. #1 is timetable speed, #2 is train speed (you can only go as fast as the slowest car in your train will let you) and, #3 is track bulletin speed (slow orders, etc). On the Generic Subdivision, timetable speed is 60 mph. If you have a 50 car train and all 50 cars are rated for 70 mph, you can only go 60 mph unless you run into #3 (ie slow order). If you have a train that has 50 cars that are rated for 60 mph, you can go 60 unless you run into #3. If you have 49 cars that are rated for 60 and 1 car that is rated for 40, you go 40 the whole way unless you run into #3. Some freight cars are good for 60, a lot are rated for 50, some are rated for 40. Like I said, you can only go as fast as the lowest speed-rated car in your train. As Dane pointed out, there is no difference between a slop freight and an intermodal...they are both freight trains. The only difference is freight and passenger. A freight could go 70 if every car in it's train permitted. Intermodal and automotive trains run faster because the cars are designed to run at higher speeds, not just because the FRA allows them to. Clear as mud? I know I'm not the best explainerer.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby GreatLakesRailfan » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:01 am

If CN is going to replace the diamonds, would they go all the way and replace the crossties approaching the diamonds? IIRC, it seems like either the ties or part of the roadbed needed some work in addition to the diamond(s)...
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby redside20 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:03 am

thanks for clearing that up for me Dane, Tops etc....I thought the FRA mandated the track speeds. :?
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby pfs » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:36 am

Quite informative, thanks to all.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby PAT.C » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:48 am

I really can't see them ripping it out,
SEVERAL YRS. AGO THEY REMOVED THE DIAMOND [ANYONE REMEMBER THE YR.?] AND THE STATE OF MI. FORCED THEM TO REPLACE IT..
I BELIEVE THE STATE HAS THE SAY SO STILL AND WON'T LET IT HAPPEN.
PERHAPS MR.TSB OR RAILDUDES DAD CAN SHED SOME LIGHT HERE.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby AARR » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:59 am

SEVERAL YRS. AGO THEY REMOVED THE DIAMOND [ANYONE REMEMBER THE YR.?] AND THE STATE OF MI. FORCED THEM TO REPLACE IT..

I think it was in the early 1990's. That's when TSBY had to zig zag their way across the GTW track (I'll bet Mr. TSB remembers this like it was yesterday :wink:.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby csxt4617 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:48 am

CSX put those flange bearing diamonds in at Wellsboro a couple years ago (on the CSX side, it doesn't have any diamond clacking, just the sound from a regular insulated joint on either side). I believe they also put this type in at Defiance OH.
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Re: Actual Possibility of New Durand Diamond ACTUAL!

Unread postby odave » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:11 am

PAT.C wrote: SEVERAL YRS. AGO THEY REMOVED THE DIAMOND [ANYONE REMEMBER THE YR.?]


The Timeline over at RRHX says the diamond was removed in late December of 1987 and replaced in 1990.

1987:
Late December: GTW removes the diamonds at Durand following a collision between a light road engine and it's own train. TSBY must now wye its way thru Durand on the GTW main line. TSBY and the city are considering legal action to have the diamonds reinstalled. [MRC-4/1988]


1990:
November 14: After being torn out for about two years, the crossing diamonds for the GTW and the TSBY at Durand are back in place. [AATHA-W/1990]
Last edited by odave on Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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