CN Michigan Customers

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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby DaveO » Wed May 29, 2019 3:01 pm

chapmaja wrote:
DaveO wrote:Regarding Lake State running over CN in Flint.
There are no decisions or filings with the Surface Transportation Board about LSRC having rights over CN at Flint.
Track rights are under the jurisdiction of the STB.
It they're doing it, they don't seem to be doing it correctly.


Could this have been something hidden in the LSRC filings to take over the Plymouth to Flint section. Could CSX have had access to, but not used these rights. When LSRC tool over they are now accessing these rights?


No, it's a material item and would need to be disclosed that LSRC was getting such rights.

Remember the issue Grand Elk had with CSX in Grand Rapids?
It was about track rights and issues about proper conveyance of those rights.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby chapmaja » Wed May 29, 2019 11:36 pm

What I am saying is "Is this something that was buried somewhere in the filing that people looking at it have just missed seeing?"
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby Ben Higdon » Thu May 30, 2019 9:02 am

NS3322 wrote:LC is on the old lumber yard spur.


Cool, thanks. Good to see that spur is getting used again. Last time I saw lumber received there was probly around 2000, before the place closed up.
LC Howard sure has/had a lot of locations. Do you know if they are still using the old James River plant on the north side of Botsford? There was a pair of old woodchip hoppers on the siding last year. I don't think they've used the Vine St location in 10-15 years. There's the location on Factory St, and last I knew they also used the building on the east side of the Upjohn Industrial near the end of Reed St.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby DaveO » Thu May 30, 2019 9:02 am

chapmaja wrote:What I am saying is "Is this something that was buried somewhere in the filing that people looking at it have just missed seeing?"

I read the filings and it's not in there. Also CN would have to make a filing about such rights and they haven't.

Certain financial information is allowed to be redacted in the filings. While the monetary angle of track rights could be redacted, the fact that track rights are being issued can't.

Consider that the STB required LSRC to include a statement about the agreement with CSX about penalties for interchanging traffic from Plymouth to Flint to another railroad.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby chapmaja » Thu May 30, 2019 5:50 pm

DaveO wrote:
chapmaja wrote:What I am saying is "Is this something that was buried somewhere in the filing that people looking at it have just missed seeing?"

I read the filings and it's not in there. Also CN would have to make a filing about such rights and they haven't.

Certain financial information is allowed to be redacted in the filings. While the monetary angle of track rights could be redacted, the fact that track rights are being issued can't.

Consider that the STB required LSRC to include a statement about the agreement with CSX about penalties for interchanging traffic from Plymouth to Flint to another railroad.



So it appears there are two possibilities going on here. One is that CSX, at one time, possibly long ago, had gained access to this section of track from the GTW and the rights were not used, therefore nobody knew about them until someone at the LSRC did some digging and found out about them, so LSRC started using them, even if they were not including in the filing regarding the lease takeover of the Plymouth-Flint line, similar to how Grand Elk was going north of Fuller when they apparently didn't retain the legal right to do so.

The second possibility is that they are doing this illegally because the rights to do this were never filed with the STB.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby DaveO » Thu May 30, 2019 6:04 pm

chapmaja wrote:
DaveO wrote:
chapmaja wrote:What I am saying is "Is this something that was buried somewhere in the filing that people looking at it have just missed seeing?"

I read the filings and it's not in there. Also CN would have to make a filing about such rights and they haven't.

Certain financial information is allowed to be redacted in the filings. While the monetary angle of track rights could be redacted, the fact that track rights are being issued can't.

Consider that the STB required LSRC to include a statement about the agreement with CSX about penalties for interchanging traffic from Plymouth to Flint to another railroad.



So it appears there are two possibilities going on here. One is that CSX, at one time, possibly long ago, had gained access to this section of track from the GTW and the rights were not used, therefore nobody knew about them until someone at the LSRC did some digging and found out about them, so LSRC started using them, even if they were not including in the filing regarding the lease takeover of the Plymouth-Flint line, similar to how Grand Elk was going north of Fuller when they apparently didn't retain the legal right to do so.

The second possibility is that they are doing this illegally because the rights to do this were never filed with the STB.


Well the CN has unions and if LSRC is running over CN without proper authorization, I would fully expect the unions to exercise their legal rights, including reporting it to the STB.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby 12Bridge » Thu May 30, 2019 9:28 pm

Ben Higdon wrote:
NS3322 wrote:LC is on the old lumber yard spur.


Cool, thanks. Good to see that spur is getting used again. Last time I saw lumber received there was probly around 2000, before the place closed up.
LC Howard sure has/had a lot of locations. Do you know if they are still using the old James River plant on the north side of Botsford? There was a pair of old woodchip hoppers on the siding last year. I don't think they've used the Vine St location in 10-15 years. There's the location on Factory St, and last I knew they also used the building on the east side of the Upjohn Industrial near the end of Reed St.


LC Howard on the North side of Botsford is an NS customer. Factory St. is the main siding they use. The property off E.N. Ave. is/was used for unloading Ingot centerbeams.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby Ben Higdon » Thu May 30, 2019 9:32 pm

12Bridge wrote:
Ben Higdon wrote:
NS3322 wrote:LC is on the old lumber yard spur.


Cool, thanks. Good to see that spur is getting used again. Last time I saw lumber received there was probly around 2000, before the place closed up.
LC Howard sure has/had a lot of locations. Do you know if they are still using the old James River plant on the north side of Botsford? There was a pair of old woodchip hoppers on the siding last year. I don't think they've used the Vine St location in 10-15 years. There's the location on Factory St, and last I knew they also used the building on the east side of the Upjohn Industrial near the end of Reed St.


LC Howard on the North side of Botsford is an NS customer. Factory St. is the main siding they use. The property off E.N. Ave. is/was used for unloading Ingot centerbeams.


Cool, thanks. Do you know what the ingots were, or who the end user was?
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby Standard Railfan » Thu May 30, 2019 10:54 pm

chapmaja wrote:So it appears there are two possibilities going on here.


There is a third possibility. Maybe no one gives a flying flatcar.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby NS3322 » Thu May 30, 2019 10:58 pm

12Bridge wrote:
Ben Higdon wrote:
Cool, thanks. Good to see that spur is getting used again. Last time I saw lumber received there was probly around 2000, before the place closed up.
LC Howard sure has/had a lot of locations. Do you know if they are still using the old James River plant on the north side of Botsford? There was a pair of old woodchip hoppers on the siding last year. I don't think they've used the Vine St location in 10-15 years. There's the location on Factory St, and last I knew they also used the building on the east side of the Upjohn Industrial near the end of Reed St.


LC Howard on the North side of Botsford is an NS customer. Factory St. is the main siding they use. The property off E.N. Ave. is/was used for unloading Ingot centerbeams.


I drove by Kilgore Yard today. The very tall CML Lumber sign is still up, but a little sign on the ground says "LC Howard." There were at least two centerbeams on the siding.
Kalamazoo Branch power is currently a recently repainted SD40-2W (could not see the number), which was attached to the caboose.

Any idea if anything in the old GM Plant (now Midlink Business Park) ships/receives by rail? I did not have enough daylight to go drive around there...
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby chapmaja » Fri May 31, 2019 12:13 am

Standard Railfan wrote:
chapmaja wrote:So it appears there are two possibilities going on here.


There is a third possibility. Maybe no one gives a flying flatcar.


That would be the least likely of the three. There are a few reasons.

First, job security. You better believe that if work is being taken away from CN employees because LSRC is coming over their tracks to pick up cars instead of those employees taking those cars to LSRC as would appear the agreements and paperwork require, the union will be all over this like flies on cowpies.

Second, if something serious happens involving a LSRC train and it turns out that the LSRC train wasn't supposed to be where it was, this is opening the door for massive liability issues for both CN and LSRC. This also becomes and issue regarding the legality of the LSRC crew operating on those tracks in the first place. Are they certified to work that section of tracks.

Finally, There is the possibility that this arrangement with CN could be removing money from CSX's pockets due to agreements in place for the traffic from the leased section of tracks. Are CN and LSRC trying to avoid paying the rental fee to CSX that is required for traffic from the leased section going to a railroad other then CSX?
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby NS3322 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:31 pm

SD80MAC wrote:I would assume it's been that way. Other than main track branches and spurs are generally considered part of whatever subdivision they branch off of.


I have found numerous references to the Kalamazoo branch being called the "Kalamazoo Subdivison." I wonder when they merged it with the South Bend Sub?
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby NS3322 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:08 pm

Well it is done. I have completed the list.

It is all here:
http://railroadfan.com/wiki/index.php/Michigan_Customers_(CN)
Last edited by NS3322 on Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby AARR » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:53 pm

I clicked on the link but nothing was there :?
NS3322 wrote:Well it is done. I have completed the list.

It is all here:
http://railroadfan.com/wiki/index.php/M ... tomers_(CN)#Dearborn_Subdivision
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby NS3322 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:06 pm

AARR wrote:I clicked on the link but nothing was there :?
NS3322 wrote:Well it is done. I have completed the list.

It is all here:
http://railroadfan.com/wiki/index.php/M ... tomers_(CN)#Dearborn_Subdivision


Fixed. Thanks for pointing that out!
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby AARR » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:23 pm

NS3322 wrote:Well it is done. I have completed the list.

It is all here:
http://railroadfan.com/wiki/index.php/Michigan_Customers_(CN)

Last time I checked Worthington was still getting a few cars once or twice a month

One of the Brownstown Twp. warehouses is getting rail service but I'm not sure which one

I don't think the King Rd. ramps are being used at this time.

I don't think Ford Stamping or Buckeye is shipping by rail at this time.

I haven't seen cars at Flat Rock Bagging in years (maybe I missed them?)

I haven't seen cars at either steel company in Flat Rock in a while.

Someone is transloading something from tank cars in Flat Rock Yard. I heard it was aviation fuel.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby NS3322 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:21 pm

AARR wrote:
NS3322 wrote:Well it is done. I have completed the list.

It is all here:
http://railroadfan.com/wiki/index.php/Michigan_Customers_(CN)

Last time I checked Worthington was still getting a few cars once or twice a month

One of the Brownstown Twp. warehouses is getting rail service but I'm not sure which one

I don't think the King Rd. ramps are being used at this time.

I don't think Ford Stamping or Buckeye is shipping by rail at this time.

I haven't seen cars at Flat Rock Bagging in years (maybe I missed them?)

I haven't seen cars at either steel company in Flat Rock in a while.

Someone is transloading something from tank cars in Flat Rock Yard. I heard it was aviation fuel.


Thank you for the information!

The Google Streetview from June 2018 shows activity at the King Rd. ramps.

Google Maps also shows two hoppers on the Flat Rock Bagging Spur. That image date is July 2018.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby AARR » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:33 am

When King Rd. yard isn't using the ramps it's used for storage. Is that what you saw or did you see them using the ramps to load cars?

Thanks for the update on FRB :D
NS3322 wrote:The Google Streetview from June 2018 shows activity at the King Rd. ramps.

Google Maps also shows two hoppers on the Flat Rock Bagging Spur. That image date is July 2018.
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby NS3322 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:25 pm

AARR wrote:When King Rd. yard isn't using the ramps it's used for storage. Is that what you saw or did you see them using the ramps to load cars?


It appears they are loading them in this image.
gmaps.JPG
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Re: CN Michigan Customers

Unread postby AARR » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:31 am

I agree with you. Looks like they're loading.
NS3322 wrote:
AARR wrote:When King Rd. yard isn't using the ramps it's used for storage. Is that what you saw or did you see them using the ramps to load cars?


It appears they are loading them in this image.
gmaps.JPG
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...
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