GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

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GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby kd_1014 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:11 pm

Does anyone know where any old signal/Control Point locations GTW had on the Grand Rapids Sub? The only signals that are left (I believe) are at Fuller Jct on the GRE.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby justalurker66 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:47 pm

Multimodalways has a 1974 timetable available ... how much is left is a good question.

http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rail ... 8-1974.pdf
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby soolinegp38 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:48 pm

kd_1014 wrote:Does anyone know where any old signal/Control Point locations GTW had on the Grand Rapids Sub? The only signals that are left (I believe) are at Fuller Jct on the GRE.

Those signals are the last ones on that line, pretty much the only searchlights left on CSX around GR until you get east of Lake Odessa
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby Saturnalia » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:57 pm

kd_1014 wrote:Does anyone know where any old signal/Control Point locations GTW had on the Grand Rapids Sub? The only signals that are left (I believe) are at Fuller Jct on the GRE.

According to the timetable posted above, looks like it was mostly TT&TO operations, with the exception of a few junctions, which would make sense, as it was never really busy enough to warrant signal control.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby SD80MAC » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:21 am

The line was never fully signaled north (west) of Durand. Signals protected interlocking plants like Malta (Lowell, Pere Marquette diamond) and Fuller, and I believe there were signals at Penn Jct. as well. While I believe Fuller was controlled by the Fuller operator, Malta was an automatic plant, served on a first come, first serve basis. Everything else was run by timetable and or train orders.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby EWRice » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:35 am

Image

Hopefully this link works. This is the signals at the GR&I/GTW crossing at penn junction. It is hard to tell in the photo but the blades almost look rounded off indicating a train order signal.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby Steve B » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:47 am

Owosso Jct. (PC) and the C&O diamond (0.4 mile e. of Ionia) also were signaled, and the ETT states that "movement is by signal indication" on the joint stretch with C&O in Grand Haven.

There's also the new signal in Durand at Main St., by track that back in the day was technically on the Grand Rapids Sub.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby kd_1014 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:36 pm

Thanks everyone for the info! Were the signals that protected Malta searchlights?
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby SD80MAC » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:39 pm

kd_1014 wrote:Thanks everyone for the info! Were the signals that protected Malta searchlights?

This is the first crossing east of Malta, circa 1987. Appears to be searchlights.

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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby EWRice » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:21 pm

Steve B wrote: the ETT states that "movement is by signal indication" on the joint stretch with C&O in Grand Haven.


That reminds me. The signals for the swing bridge over the Spring Lake chanel were of the triangle light configuration. One is on display in front of PM 1223.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby jrgerber » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:16 pm

Steve here's a March 1975 picture of the GTW signal protecting the C&O crossing in Ionia. I think its a Charlie Whipp or Charlie G. Jr. pic
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby MQT1223 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:23 am

jrgerber wrote:Steve here's a March 1975 picture of the GTW signal protecting the C&O crossing in Ionia. I think its a Charlie Whipp or Charlie G. Jr. pic

Any idea what direction this photo is facing and what street that is in the foreground?

Did the GTW have any passing sidings with signals or was it all manual?
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby jrgerber » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:16 am

Its looking east towards American Bumper the boxcars in the sidings are probably for them
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby SD80MAC » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:31 am

MQT1223 wrote:
jrgerber wrote:Steve here's a March 1975 picture of the GTW signal protecting the C&O crossing in Ionia. I think its a Charlie Whipp or Charlie G. Jr. pic

Any idea what direction this photo is facing and what street that is in the foreground?

Did the GTW have any passing sidings with signals or was it all manual?

As mentioned, the only signals on the GR Sub were automatic interlockings or controlled by the railroad they were crossing (or the operator). All switches would have been hand throws.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby C&O Dispatcher » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:38 pm

That small shanty at the diamond in Ionia contained a small interlocking machine, operated by C&O trainmen. The signals were normally "clear" for the GTW. There were derails with STOP signs on the C&O side. A C&O crew member would operate a lever in the shanty to set the signals to stop on the GTW and then had to wait a set time (I don't recall how many minutes) before they could operate a lever to lift the derails for their movement. Back in 1976-77 I worked a C&O mobile agent job a few times that was headquartered at Lowell, and had to take a switch list and waybills every day down to the diamond at Ionia for the local out of Ensel. I'm fairly familiar with the GTW Grand Rapids Sub (except the west end) and spent many hours with the agent at St Johns back in the 1960's.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby jrgerber » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:23 pm

If you got any pictures from those days I am sure we would all love to see them.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby geeb557 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:59 am

I remember you could always tell when the C&O was in Ionia because the top red light was much brighter than the lower red light on the eastbound GTW signal at the diamond. The signal remained that way until the C&O left town. My question is, what would have happened if a GT train came along. Would the signal have cleared, or would the GT crew have had to go into the shanty to clear the signal? And if the GT crew cleared the signal how would the C&O crew know? It's conceivable if they were switching between the buildings at General Tire they may not know.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby C&O Dispatcher » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:37 am

I presume that when the C&O crew arrived at the diamond they communicated with the GTW dispatcher via the track side phone to determine if the GTW would have anything in the area while they did their work and could leave the derails off until they went back east toward Gd Ledge. Otherwise, they would have locked things back up while doing their work in town. The timetable instructions called for them to restore everything to normal as soon as they cleared in either direction. (I couldn't find any instructions in the GTW timetables regarding the crossing at Ionia other than showing it as an unattended interlocking). At any rate, the C&O crew would still have to observe their STOP sign at the diamond and observe whether the derails were on or off.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby Doktor No » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:43 am

From the April 26, 1964 C&O ETT: "IONIA-Crossing of Iona (sp) Sub and GTW is governed by derail target with yellow switch lamp. Instructions posted in tower." Its the same instruction in the Oct. 25, 1970 ETT. They did correct the IONIA spelling though.
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Re: GTW Grand Rapids Sub Old Signals

Unread postby C&O Dispatcher » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:27 am

1981 Timetable: "Ionia: To cross GTW Railroad crew will determine GTW train or engine not fouling or approaching crossing; normal signal levers Nos 1 and 3; wait 3 minutes and 30 seconds and reverse derail lever No 2 to remove derails and proceed. After clearing opposing derail, crew will normal lever No 2; reverse levers Nos 3 and 1." I do remember there were also STOP signs ahead of the derails.
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