Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby penn central » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:41 pm

According to what i read in the Trains News Wire takeover date is March 29th. I remember the last CSX train out of Saginaw in October of 2005, There where 5 locomotives and 67 cars of mixed frt and 2 RC sleds (Remote Control) bringing up the rear. I wrote down the locomotive numbers but ill be dang if i can find the piece of paper i wrote it on. But i do remember one of locomotives was the 2610.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby MQT1223 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:10 pm

penn central wrote:According to what i read in the Trains News Wire takeover date is March 29th. I remember the last CSX train out of Saginaw in October of 2005, There where 5 locomotives and 67 cars of mixed frt and 2 RC sleds (Remote Control) bringing up the rear. I wrote down the locomotive numbers but ill be dang if i can find the piece of paper i wrote it on. But i do remember one of locomotives was the 2610.


Did the date change? The original date was March 8th.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby ~Z~ » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:22 am

MQT1223 wrote:Did the date change? The original date was March 8th.

Correct, new date is 3/29/19 per the STB filing link that your brother posted.
LSRC intends to consummate its lease of the Plymouth Line from CSXT and commence operations on the Plymouth Line on March 29, 2019.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby chapmaja » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:48 pm

~Z~ wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:Did the date change? The original date was March 8th.

Correct, new date is 3/29/19 per the STB filing link that your brother posted.
LSRC intends to consummate its lease of the Plymouth Line from CSXT and commence operations on the Plymouth Line on March 29, 2019.



I wonder if the delayed takeover date has anything to do with the government shutdown that took up several weeks earlier this year. this likely delayed the filing with the STB. Does the STB have a mandated length of time after a filing before the takeover can become official?
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby chapmaja » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:51 pm

MQT1223 wrote:
Saturnalia wrote:The STB filing finally dropped the other day:
https://www.stb.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7 ... 247140.pdf

Key highlights:
- Property line will be north of Middle River a distance such that CSX will have enough headroom in Plymouth
- Interchange will move from Flint to Plymouth
- LSRC can interchange with the CN at Flint or Holly as they like but will pay a fee to CSX for any cars originating on the segment between Flint and Plymouth which are interchanged that way
- LSRC will haul CSX's Port Huron traffic to Flint and CSX will then use trackage rights on LSRC to get down to the CN
- CSX reserves overhead trackage rights to Flint from Plymouth which they can use to reach their CN connection under certain undisclosed terms - probably in the event they find LSRC's haulage rights unsatisfactory

So in general terms CSX intends to keep the Port Huron status quo, with LSRC hauling traffic up to Flint.

I'm excited to see what the Lake State might be able to do with the Flint area, in terms of regenerating traffic. Whole lotta yard space available, too, for storage cars.


I remember as a kid when CSX and CN/GT removed what was left of the interchange, the station siding and anything else associated with it around the diamond in Holly. What would ever warrant them putting any of that back in? Not saying that they would want to, I just find it interesting that the option is there when the interchange at Flint seems like the more logical place to go.

Also, what will happen the night before the lease begins? Will CSX run one train through to grab anything that is theirs such as locomotives and leave everything else behind that isn't theirs?


Given that CSX still has rights over the line, plus the access from Flint to Port Huron, I would think this isn't a high priority. If they have some stuff in Wixom, maybe, but I don't know if there is anything else to warrant an urgent move like that.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby Steve B » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:26 pm

I imagine any mention of Holly as an interchange point is just to cover all legal bases, instead of any actual anticipated activity. LSRC has secured permission (from CSX? does the lessor authorize who the lessee can interchange with?) to interchange with CN at Holly, should the need ever arise.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby MQT1223 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:35 pm

Steve B wrote:I imagine any mention of Holly as an interchange point is just to cover all legal bases, instead of any actual anticipated activity. LSRC has secured permission (from CSX? does the lessor authorize who the lessee can interchange with?) to interchange with CN at Holly, should the need ever arise.


Makes me wonder what ideas they have. To me it makes no sense to have two interchange points so close together with the same carrier(s).
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby DaveO » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:51 pm

MQT1223 wrote:
Steve B wrote:I imagine any mention of Holly as an interchange point is just to cover all legal bases, instead of any actual anticipated activity. LSRC has secured permission (from CSX? does the lessor authorize who the lessee can interchange with?) to interchange with CN at Holly, should the need ever arise.


Makes me wonder what ideas they have. To me it makes no sense to have two interchange points so close together with the same carrier(s).


It's called puffery.
It helps to obscure the fact that they have withheld from publishing everything pertaining to the currently served customers.
Things like who will switch them, where the interchange of traffic from those customers will occur and penalties and/or rewards related to those activities.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby chapmaja » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 pm

MQT1223 wrote:
Steve B wrote:I imagine any mention of Holly as an interchange point is just to cover all legal bases, instead of any actual anticipated activity. LSRC has secured permission (from CSX? does the lessor authorize who the lessee can interchange with?) to interchange with CN at Holly, should the need ever arise.


Makes me wonder what ideas they have. To me it makes no sense to have two interchange points so close together with the same carrier(s).



It likely would relate to any "hotshot" service that could (and most likely never will materialize). Having access to the Holly Sub would allow a much faster routing of traffic between Flint or points north to Pontiac or a CN served location in Detroit. Instead of interchanging in Flint, have the traffic go from Flint to Durand and then south through Holly, the interchange could take place in Holly saving a substantial amount of time in transit.

Like I said, I think this is highly unlikely, but would explain why you would have the interchange so close together.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby MQT1223 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:55 pm

chapmaja wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:
Steve B wrote:
It likely would relate to any "hotshot" service that could (and most likely never will materialize). Having access to the Holly Sub would allow a much faster routing of traffic between Flint or points north to Pontiac or a CN served location in Detroit. Instead of interchanging in Flint, have the traffic go from Flint to Durand and then south through Holly, the interchange could take place in Holly saving a substantial amount of time in transit.

Like I said, I think this is highly unlikely, but would explain why you would have the interchange so close together.


So say if Lake State had someone in Pontiac that was served by CN that wanted direct shipping from Saginaw for example versus taking the extra day in Flint it could get picked up by a local and taken straight to Pontiac?
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby Steve B » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:45 pm

Also, Lake State would get a longer haul and slice of the revenue if it interchanged in Holly instead of Flint.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby Saturnalia » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:38 pm

You guys are reading way too far into the Holly part of the agreement. CSX is simply saying "there's a physical connection there, use it if you want to, but pay us a share if you do". It also prevents them from appearing anti-competitive if they denied LSRC the ability to interchange with a different railroad they connect to. Still, CSX will be paid a fee if LSRC ever uses the CN to interchange any traffic originated between Mt Morris and Middle River.

I'm not sure what the old agreements are regarding the SBS. Likely, traffic from the SBS is probably supposed to be interchanged with the CSX or a similar fee paid to interchange with another carrier like the HESR.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby MQT1223 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:17 am

Saturnalia wrote:You guys are reading way too far into the Holly part of the agreement. CSX is simply saying "there's a physical connection there, use it if you want to, but pay us a share if you do". It also prevents them from appearing anti-competitive if they denied LSRC the ability to interchange with a different railroad they connect to. Still, CSX will be paid a fee if LSRC ever uses the CN to interchange any traffic originated between Mt Morris and Middle River.

I'm not sure what the old agreements are regarding the SBS. Likely, traffic from the SBS is probably supposed to be interchanged with the CSX or a similar fee paid to interchange with another carrier like the HESR.


For a guy like me though that missed Holly in its prime back in the day, its fun to think about. There are zero online customers in Holly anymore, no interchange, its very boring. Even I remember as a kid seeing the remnants of everything from the heyday and it was much more interesting then.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby Robertrains » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:08 pm

~Z~ wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:Did the date change? The original date was March 8th.

Correct, new date is 3/29/19 per the STB filing link that your brother posted.
LSRC intends to consummate its lease of the Plymouth Line from CSXT and commence operations on the Plymouth Line on March 29, 2019.

Are there any new "Updates" to
LSRC operating this line? Is LSRC still going to "Commence" operations on Friday 3-29? Does anyone know how their operations will work out? Will CSX power stay on the "Grain Extras" or will they "Swap" out power at Plymouth for every train north? :?: I will be going to Holly next Saturday, 3-30, and hope to catch some LSRC trains that day!!!!
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby SD80MAC » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:39 pm

Haven’t heard, but since CSX power runs through on most of the grain trains that run to Lake State, I doubt that will change.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby MQT1223 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 am

Final day of CSX control... who’s gonna see the finale?
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby DaveO » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:19 am

MQT1223 wrote:Final day of CSX control... who’s gonna see the finale?

Remember the takeover date is on OR AFTER March 29, 2019.
So while not likely, it might not be tomorrow.

Since LSRC apparently hasn't received the engines purchased from CSX...
I'm assuming whatever goes north from Plymouth tomorrow will be temporary power for LSRC.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby penn central » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:35 am

I got pictures and chased the very last Q321 from Flint to Holly back in 2017. I was surprised i was the only one chasing.
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby MQT1223 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:45 pm

DaveO wrote:
MQT1223 wrote:Final day of CSX control... who’s gonna see the finale?

Remember the takeover date is on OR AFTER March 29, 2019.
So while not likely, it might not be tomorrow.

Since LSRC apparently hasn't received the engines purchased from CSX...
I'm assuming whatever goes north from Plymouth tomorrow will be temporary power for LSRC.


Oh ok. Guess I didn't read the fine print lol
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Re: Lake State to Lease CSX Line from Plymouth to Mt. Morris

Unread postby SD80MAC » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:07 am

Sounds like 2 of the SD50s Lake State got from CSX will be going direct to LSRC, the other 4 will be going to MEI in East St. Louis for work (and presumably paint) first.
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