Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Anything pertaining to railfanning in Michigan.
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Saturnalia
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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Steve B wrote:
Saturnalia wrote:
Amtrak in Michigan has only seen improvement under the last 8 years of solid Republican control of the State.
Wow. That neatly ignores the $161 million for Amtrak in Michigan that the Obama's FRA awarded in Oct. 2010, and that Granholm applied for, but I guess that doesn't fit your narrative.
Well Snyder nor the legislature ever moved to give the money back like Wisconsin and Florida did.

Does that fit your narrative?
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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Unread post by Steve B »

Saturnalia, your remarks about WI and FL undermine your implication that Republicans are good for passenger rail, since those rejections of Federal money were made by Republicans.

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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

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Steve B wrote:Saturnalia, your remarks about WI and FL undermine your implication that Republicans are good for passenger rail, since those rejections of Federal money were made by Republicans.
Apparently you missed where I was talking about Michigan in terms of Republicans not sinking Amtrak!

This state has a pretty decent history of pragmatic governance from both parties.
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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

TSS wrote:
NSSD70ACe wrote: As for the PM, I figure that once we begin to see the new coaches arriving, there will probably be enough equipment to add a second round trip of the PM using the old equipment (refurbished Amfleet I's) until the Amfleet replacements begin to arrive. There might even be enough to add a GRR-DET PM, if the demand is there and CSX is willing to play ball.
The PM is a good train—ridership seems solid and it’s reasonably dependable in terms of timekeeping, in contrast to the somewhat similar Hoosier State. But with only one run a day and no state-owned trackage to provide a sunk-cost justification, I have always thought of it as the weakest of the Michigan trains and more likely to go should political or budgetary winds blow the wrong way.

But you seem to have a far more optimistic assessment. I hope you are right—I would enjoy the flexibility of two round trips.
My optimistic assessment comes from seeing the potential of a more flexible PM. When CSX did their route rationalization or whatever, the PM was on the chopping block. It got saved, but that doesn’t mean it’ll happen again unless some major traffic materializes (IIRC, the PM was put up for review even after the addition of the two manifests from NY state).

I figure if CSX puts the line up for review and possible sale, maybe MDOT/Amtrak can make a play for it much in the same way they did with NS for the Michigan Line. Keep CSX on as the “designated freight operator” and upgrade the line for faster speeds. That’ll grow ridership and possibly create demand for more trains.

DaveO: not sure if you were referring to me with the “Which train is NS going to remove for the second PM consist”, but in case you were, you wouldn’t have to remove another train. I’m talking a second PM no earlier than the 2020s when the new cars begin to arrive. That way, more of the heritage fleet will be freed up for starting or expanding service elsewhere. Ideally, the cars would be all rehabbed AM-Is or even the Amfleet replacement depending on when Amtrak places the order for the new corridor coaches.

If you meant time slots on NS, well, we’re just going to have to figure that out. Amtrak says corridors are their future. If that is indeed true, that means new and expanded services, which means negotiating with host railroads for more slots.
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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

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MDOT has a stated goal of adding another PM service. What it needs is funding, equipment, and railroad permission.

Honestly CSX probably doesn't care all that much about adding a 372/373 because they already do during Thanksgiving and honestly the Grand Rapids Sub isn't hurting for capacity. Not saying it'll be free to MDOT, but CSX isn't going to drag their heels.

As for NS, they just got all that money (and put more in themselves) to update the Chicago Line for more trains, freight and passenger. Two additional Amtrak moves, assuming they coincide with other moves so as to be a fleet, probably would be pretty doable. Problem is if they also want to double up the Blue Water and add more Wolverines.

Then we're starting to talk about more third track, and that means touching the spots nobody wants to touch, there there are bridges, such is the case at CP509 and CP502 and around Burns Harbor. What's already triple main was the easy stuff which was simple additional fill and lay track. The next segments will take a lot more work and a lot more money. Nobody at MDOT or IDOT probably dares look at the bridges at Calumet and Hick without a collective shiver.

Now there's always talk about using the South Shore, and I'm generally a fan of that proposal, especially now that they'll have it all double-tracked west of Michigan City in the next several years. The problem there is also hilariously expensive, and that is how to get those trains back to Chicago Union Station. We're talking massive property acquisition or another new bridge over the Chicago River and reconfiguration of the south CUS leads. Probably a non-starter.

Third option is to get that new belt railroad around Chicago built, freeing up plenty of Chicago Line space. But note, I'm listing these in order of increasing "probably not", so yeah...

Ultimately one thing to keep in mind about Amtrak is that it really takes 2-3 trains of capacity to handle, even if they're less than 500' long due to their speed. You can see how it is efficient to fleet the 354, 370 and 30 out of Chicago each night but it really only works eastbound... it's supposed to happen with 371, 29 (or 49?) and 351 in the morning but that never works because they all get jumbled up in their schedule.

So it looks to me like the key to more Michigan passenger service is equipment, railroad agreements and those bloody Chicago Line bridges!
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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Unread post by DaveO »

NSSD70ACe wrote:If you meant time slots on NS, well, we’re just going to have to figure that out. Amtrak says corridors are their future. If that is indeed true, that means new and expanded services, which means negotiating with host railroads for more slots.
Yes, getting space on the Chicago line is the issue. As Saturnalia indicated, the solution could be getting some of the NS freight trains off of the Chicago line. But I think the South Shore can play a part. No solution will be cheap or quick. But it would be nice if the potential parties all sat down and agreed on a plan. If you have a definite plan, then you can start working on small pieces every year.

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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Unread post by CR900945 »

If some of the Amtrak trains ran on the South Shore, the logical way to enter Union Station is to build a connecting track at Grand Crossing. This is where the ex-PRR main crosses the IC main. This was also the proposed location for the Illinois downstate trains to connect which was discussed when it was revealed several years ago that the city of Chicago wanted trains off the St. Charles Airline routing. No new bridges necessary - just a number of complex crossovers.

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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Unread post by fmilhaupt »

Saturnalia wrote:Third option is to get that new belt railroad around Chicago built, freeing up plenty of Chicago Line space. But note, I'm listing these in order of increasing "probably not", so yeah...
Yeah, that's definitely the least likely option. The scheme went from "probably not" to effectively "never".

The Little Railroad That Nobody Really Wanted was pretty conclusively shot down last year, when the STB refused to approve it and Great Lakes Basin Transportation failed to appeal the ruling within the specified period. See http://www.rrstar.com/news/20171107/gre ... l-decision
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Re: Amtrak Michigan Services: Schedule Effective 07/16/18

Unread post by justalurker66 »

CR900945 wrote:If some of the Amtrak trains ran on the South Shore, the logical way to enter Union Station is to build a connecting track at Grand Crossing.
I am looking forward to Grand Crossing being completed. The proposed path needs a lot of work, but the connection can be done.

Regular Amtrak trains on the South Shore is a non-starter. Sure, let them on for an emergency reroute but not on a regular basis. NICTD needs their capacity for their current trains and planned service improvements to Northwest Indiana. Daily Amtraks on NICTD would be a mess.

There are some bottlenecks along the NS alignment (the two shipping canals are the most notable). But overall that path is better than the South Shore. No platforms or residential areas to slow down for. The CSX Porter Branch would also be an interesting option.

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