Huge potash mine for Evart?

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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The UP line rebuild was done in the 80s. The state relaid the line to Ontonagon for the Champion mill with heavy rail, John Larkin pulls it out to sell or reuse, now they want the state to re-lay the rail for the new biofuel business. The last is 12 miles to relay don't remember the distance for the first relay. If EL&S gets the business again they double dipped the state.

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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So it appears that based on most of your comments, the likelihood of track being relayed is low in favor trucking to a transload location.

650,000 tons per year is a LOT of trucks back and forth to Cadillac or Baldwin or Clare. When the impacted population is given the choice, I hope they would choose rail transportation instead of hundreds of new truck roaring back and forth!!! Even if I were not a railfan, the solution is clear from a logical and practical standpoint. A few trains a week or loud truck after truck going by!

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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David Lang wrote:So it appears that based on most of your comments, the likelihood of track being relayed is low in favor trucking to a transload location.

650,000 tons per year is a LOT of trucks back and forth to Cadillac or Baldwin or Clare. When the impacted population is given the choice, I hope they would choose rail transportation instead of hundreds of new truck roaring back and forth!!! Even if I were not a railfan, the solution is clear from a logical and practical standpoint. A few trains a week or loud truck after truck going by!
650,000 tons per year is only 1780 tons per day, or 74 tons per hour. That's enough for some good truck traffic, but really not more than a handful per hour. Our high truck weight limits help that out even more.

If 1780 tons were loaded into railcars daily, figuring 100 tons of product per car, that is 18 cars per day, however.

Don't forget that a large sum will likely be for local consumption. I recall talk from earlier editions of this thread that suggested that very little would even leave the state or go beyond OH, IN. We shall see. I'd say 10 cars loaded per day would probably be a high estimate, which would be great traffic for the GLC or MQT. Another potential option would be occasional unit-train loading.

Lots to be seen, but interesting nonetheless!
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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I just don't see this as a viable project. Mosaic had these land leases at one time after PPG.I can't see them letting go of a viable mining location. North American demand doesn't seem to be there.
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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Saturnalia wrote:Plus moving all that water would be hilarious in terms of power consumption.
I found calculations for a 300TPH slurry line taking into account pipe corrosion, friction factors, change in head pressure and so forth. Assuming a 40' change in elevation in route and (16) 90 degree elbows...7,600HP to pump 300TPH of a 45% solution 20 miles. 300TPH is more than they would need in Evart. I didn't spend enough time with it but doubt the numbers can simply be scales down.

While the slurry line manufacturers tout being competitive with rail and moving material a "1 USD/ton", when you burrow into their data you find that energy input is 60-70% of the operating cost. They say themselves slurry lines are best suited to locations where there is a natural decline mine to user or a cheap electrical source is available.

My money would be on a trucking solution. Michigan allows some of the highest gross vehicle weights in the country. You get a fleet of of the covered double trailer gravel trains that can run 100,000 pounds plus gross weight. Out of the gate leased trucks get them into production with a minimal capital out lay. It gives access to two railroads preventing them being a captive shipper. It doesn't prevent them from pursuing direct rail connection if that were ever feasible politically and economically..

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

Unread post by Raildudes dad »

PatAzo wrote:
Saturnalia wrote: Far easier to truck the dry, finished product to loadout instead of the slurry solution.
Why is it easier to dry the product in Evart, load it on trucks to say White Cloud then into rail cars vs pumping the solution to White Cloud and drying it there?
The water is injected back into the ground which I assume (I know that's dangerous :D ) needs to be reasonably close to the mine site. The existing plant operates the same way. It produces more salt than potash.

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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It was anticipated when the transload at Cadillac was built for potash that salt might be shipped from there too but of course it has all gone by truck.
Raildudes dad wrote:The water is injected back into the ground which I assume (I know that's dangerous :D ) needs to be reasonably close to the mine site. The existing plant operates the same way. It produces more salt than potash.
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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Bump
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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Tom49801 brought this up in the CSX OCS heads up thread about resuming rail service to Hersey, could this be relevant to his post?
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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David Collins wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:34 pm
Tom49801 brought this up in the CSX OCS heads up thread about resuming rail service to Hersey, could this be relevant to his post?
What post was that?? I don't recall posting anything on that subject, I am not aware of the goings on in that region. What is "CSX OCS" ??

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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Tom49801 wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:03 pm
What post was that?? I don't recall posting anything on that subject, I am not aware of the goings on in that region. What is "CSX OCS" ??
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Tom49801 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:04 pm
Do they presently have rail service to the location in Hersey? Or, is there an abandoned line they are considering to restore back into service?

That was from the CSX office car special heads up thread that ran through the state this past August (OCS is short for office car special) I didn’t know if this post was related to this thread or not, thought you’d maybe still be interested.
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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David Collins wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:28 pm
Tom49801 wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:03 pm
What post was that?? I don't recall posting anything on that subject, I am not aware of the goings on in that region. What is "CSX OCS" ??
This one⬇️⬇️⬇️
Tom49801 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:04 pm
Do they presently have rail service to the location in Hersey? Or, is there an abandoned line they are considering to restore back into service?

That was from the CSX office car special heads up thread that ran through the state this past August (OCS is short for office car special) I didn’t know if this post was related to this thread or not, thought you’d maybe still be interested.
Oh yeah, I remember now....I was asking that question because if I remember correctly, someone had said they thought managers from that Potash company were riding the OCS too.

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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"Someone said...from what I heard...it's my understanding..." G'dmnt, when is someone going to go on the record in this story? (apologies to "All The President's Men".)

Of course, the main issue is that we haven't really even seen a story yet.

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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Isn't there some clause about railroad grades that get turned into recreational trails being able to be re-laid for railroad use if ever desired? Like the railroad in theory gets first dibs on the trail grade if they wanted to take it back or showed interest in it? Most of the rail trails now a days are government property I'd assume?

Besides the NIMBY's and their backwards way of thinking when it comes to taking railroad grades and turning them into trails, isn't part of the idea behind a railroad grade being able to preserve it if such a need arose?
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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MQT1223 wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:40 pm
Isn't there some clause about railroad grades that get turned into recreational trails being able to be re-laid for railroad use if ever desired? Like the railroad in theory gets first dibs on the trail grade if they wanted to take it back or showed interest in it? Most of the rail trails now a days are government property I'd assume?

Besides the NIMBY's and their backwards way of thinking when it comes to taking railroad grades and turning them into trails, isn't part of the idea behind a railroad grade being able to preserve it if such a need arose?
As far as I know there's no federal or state clause that says the railroad gets first right on a trail if it wants it back. Sometimes governments say they're "rail banking" grades but that doesn't give a railroad an automatic right to take it back.

I don't know what you mean by referring to NIMBYs' "backwards way of thinking" turning grades into trails. NIMBYs don't create trails, if anything they fight to prevent them. And if the trails weren't created the land would revert to landowners and/or get sold piecemeal, plowed under and built upon.

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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If this is an actual "Railtrail" situation, then the railroad has the legal right to relay rail and use the ROW anytime they so desire. If it was not a designated "railtrail", then it is anybody's guess as to how the deal might have been written up.

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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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mowingman wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:48 pm
If this is an actual "Railtrail" situation, then the railroad has the legal right to relay rail and use the ROW anytime they so desire. If it was not a designated "railtrail", then it is anybody's guess as to how the deal might have been written up.
Well I mean the title is in the name... "Pere Marquette Rail Trail". I want to say the DNR maintains most of these so thus the state owns them? I believe the trail runs the majority of the former Ludington Sub?
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Re: Huge potash mine for Evart?

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mowingman wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:48 pm
If this is an actual "Railtrail" situation, then the railroad has the legal right to relay rail and use the ROW anytime they so desire. If it was not a designated "railtrail", then it is anybody's guess as to how the deal might have been written up.
It's rarely that a railroad can simply rebuild "anytime they so desire" on a ROW that some other entity now owns, regardless of what the law says. For those who want to wander into the weeds on this topic, this looks like a good read. Be forewarned that it's written by a lawyer for the trail movement.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resourceh ... 17_REV.pdf

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Potash in Osceola County

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Curb Your Enthusiasm.

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Re: Potash in Osceola County

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From the other board.
Posted by Ren Farley on 4/3/2022, 8:07 pm
Because if the Russian disasterOUS of Ukraine, the availability of potash has decreased. Apparently work will soon begin on a $1.1 billion dollar investment in a new potash mine near Evart. Are there plans to restore rail service on the former C & O line west from Clare to Evart to transport the eventual millions of tons of potash or is there consideration of constructing a spur from the former Ann Arbor line to the major new potash mine? Or will the owners truck the potash all over the country and to naval ports where it will be exported to all over the world?
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