A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Anything pertaining to railfanning in Michigan.
User avatar
Doktor No
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:49 pm
Location: Rockford, Michigan

A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by Doktor No »

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blo ... color.html
I think PTC will be interesting...and I am glad I AIN'T OUT THERE ANYMORE.
Read and discuss please.
Curb Your Enthusiasm.

PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by PatAzo »

I tried to get through the article but gave up. His writing style is miserable. None the less if I get the gist of what he is saying is PTC will not provide complete safety coverage and at the same time give people not understanding the limitations a false sense of security.

User avatar
AARR
Ann Arbor RR Nerd
Posts: 37910
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: Washington, MI

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by AARR »

If PatA is correct about what the author is saying then that is the same thing others have been saying from the beginning.

Also, I’ve been told that it will become very expensive cutting in new switches making the likelihood of new carload businesses less economical.
PatAzo wrote:I tried to get through the article but gave up. His writing style is miserable. None the less if I get the gist of what he is saying is PTC will not provide complete safety coverage and at the same time give people not understanding the limitations a false sense of security.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

User avatar
Doktor No
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:49 pm
Location: Rockford, Michigan

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by Doktor No »

If you go to the bottom of his page he has some other interesting articles. One about the Texaco tank farm exploding at Oak Island Yard. He worked his way up thru the ranks...interesting guy but I agree, the article was somewhat tedious to read. Gist was that a request for study was placed, along with a lot of money to write it. SouCal University got the money and wrote the story.
From what I am understanding is....PTC will NOT be the end all to everything. It is a very complicated setup to say the least. Throw in the fact that different railroads will use different systems and they all must be able to use each others locomotives makes it even more...shall we say...CRAZY.
Go back to ATS and ATC. Simple and effective. It worked for over 50 plus years...
Thanks for the inputs AAR and PatAZO. Anyone else?
Curb Your Enthusiasm.

PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by PatAzo »

Doktor No wrote:Go back to ATS and ATC. Simple and effective. It worked for over 50 plus years...
Consider that point. More than 50 years ago locomotives were receiving signal indications and stopping the train if needed. The functionality was simple driven by the technology available at the time. Carry that same simplicity forward to today. Forget predictive braking and dynamic blocks. Condense it to what you really need to know. Is the train allowed to be moving on the section of track at the speed it's moving? There is a ton of off the shelf technology that can receive authority from a dispatcher and track where the train is.

User avatar
SousaKerry
ALCOHAULIC
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Somewhere north of Jackson but south of Leslie
Contact:

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by SousaKerry »

The whole article sounds to me like the guy is butt hurt that he didn't get the big government contract that was obviously written to be handed off to a university grad department. Probably some state senators kid. So he is picking the thing apart because a bunch of grad students and a couple professors sat around for 5 years scratching their heads can't figure out why trains just can't use stop lights like cars do.

I love how the authors of the report were all upset that they were not given access to the proprietary code and hardware the contractors were installing. How dare they keep trade secrets secret, the nerve of private enterprise.

He does however make some very good points especially about 90% being considered a success. If I had machinery at work running as low as 90% efficient I would be fired in a heart beat. 99.8% is my usual target goal and we often see 99.98%
What smells like lube oil and diesel.... Oh wait it's just my "Locomotive Breath"

User avatar
DaveO
Read more, think more, post less
Posts: 1453
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:57 pm
Location: Between here and there

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by DaveO »

Message removed by user
Last edited by DaveO on Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Doktor No
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:49 pm
Location: Rockford, Michigan

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by Doktor No »

Kinda hard to diagnose a diseased patient if you can only see a picture of him. To make a study actually BE WORTH something you actually need the information...and make it available. You need to see and poke the patient to find the cause of illness. Other then that why waste the time.
Give the Eqyptians a program and they don't use it? Ever see a Cairo commuter train crash...non this year...so far.
One point he makes is the real problem here...everyone, including some here...seem to think that PTC will be the end all to everything. It will not. Thinsg will still go bump in the night. Yeah 90% isn't near good enough is it?
PatAZO, you hit it on the head...just because its simple does not mean that it doesn't work. Back unitl what...the 70's...there were on hell of a lot more freight trains mixed in with a hell of a lot more passenger trains and crashes were NOT commonplace. ATS and ATC worked very well. Had PC/Conrail left it in place the Ricky Gates crash would never happened. They even removed the derails that were in place with a red signal...too much upkeep.
Its wayyy overkill. They may get it to EVENTUALLY WORK...best of luck.
I'll fly in a plane and I'll ride a train and I'll drive a car on the highway...all have different levels of danger...and the highways are the worst..but we go to the store anyway...
Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Waddy
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:48 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by Waddy »

DaveO wrote: Personally, I would eliminate the current crew calling system. These are people, not robots.
Why can't the train crew have regular, unchanging, established shifts? That goes great with the in-vogue precision railroading the some rail whiz-bangs and wall street promote.
You ever worked for a railroad before?

User avatar
DaveO
Read more, think more, post less
Posts: 1453
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:57 pm
Location: Between here and there

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by DaveO »

Message removed by user
Last edited by DaveO on Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYCMan
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by NYCMan »

PTC will, once day, be deemed a cruel -- but extremely expensive -- joke. PTC is NOT the "do all, end all" for railroad safety. PTC was forced upon the railroad industry by the politicians, who were lobbied by the competing companies that developed PTC. And, so the railroad industry did not get one standard system, they got competing systems, and it seems as if no two Class 1 railroads are using the same same, each is using a non-compatible system. Hence, when PTC comes into real play, for those locomotives that must travel over different railroad lines, the locomotives will need redundant systems, or those locomotives cannot lead the train.

Will PTC really help? I submit that PTC is going to lead to bigger, "better", and more deadly accidents than ever. Why? Because of complacency. Once you have a computer "running the train", the engineer is going to let down his guard because "the computer is looking out for me." Think it won't happen? It has happened in the airline industry! Remember the Airbus demo at the Paris Air Show in 1988 where the pilot wanted the plane to pull up, but the computer overrode the pilot and flew the plane into a bunch of trees and the ground? Want to bring it closer to the railroad industry? Then, remember the Washington DC Metro train-on-train crash in 1998 that killed 8 and injured over 80 -- the computer took control and the 2 train operators were powerless to stop the trains. Or, how about in 2014, the Chicago CTA train that failed to stop at the end of the line at OHare Airport, injuring 30; the PTC did not do its job.

And, as to "precision railroading," it is a myth. Railroading is in a daily, even hourly, state of constant change. The needs of shippers change from day to day. The needs of receivers change from day to day. Auto sales are up one month, and down the next, and this changes the dynamics of the railroad every day. The railroad needs to be able to adapt to these changes. Look what happened at CN when Hunter Harrison tried to dictate to General Motors that GM needed to operate their plants to convenience EHH's "precision scheduled railroad" schedules; GM stopped shipping their vehicles via CN. A viable business must be able to adapt to the needs of its customers. For, once a business loses touch with its customers, that business is sure to lose. Adapt of lose, that is the rule of innovation.

Waddy
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:48 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by Waddy »

DaveO wrote:
Waddy wrote: You ever worked for a railroad before?
No.
ok all i need to know

User avatar
DaveO
Read more, think more, post less
Posts: 1453
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:57 pm
Location: Between here and there

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by DaveO »

Message removed by user
Last edited by DaveO on Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Waddy
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:48 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by Waddy »

DaveO wrote:No.
ok all i need to know[/quote]

The best move the railroads could have done to head off PTC is to treat their employees as humans. And a big part of that would be to give their employees a regular shift schedule.

[/quote]
Most crews do have a schedule. Those that don't are on the extra board. Trains are delayed for a multitude of reasons. Today's trains could not move the freight that they due, without an extra board. Its just how it is.

PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by PatAzo »

It was a commuter railroad collision that finally drove PTC through. The commuter roads and Amtrak have been seeing wrecks that PTC arguably would have helped prevent. Their people work regularly scheduled trains.

NYCMan
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by NYCMan »

In the 1960s, New York Central and Santa Fe had Automatic Train Stop (ATS), Pennsylvania had Cab Control System (CCS), and I forget what the other big railroads had. But, in the 1970s, these all disappeared. Wonder how long PTC is going to last?

Super Chief
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1191
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Three Rivers, Mi.--Indian Rocks Beach,Fl.

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by Super Chief »

I agree with every previous post. It won't solve every situation. It never will be a cure all. Look at the modern warships that have had collisions with cargo ships of late. Nobody posting watches anymore? Everybody has their head buried in a monitor till the BIG BANG!#$. Then its WTF just happened? When CSX moved 8 dispatching centers to Jacksonville given the time constraints that EHH had on it, their sleeping in their cars and going to work. Sold all their homes, no moving money, kids uprooted, and no you can't stay on RR property to sleep in your car. Jacksonville Times says it's a mess down there. My point is no dedication to the company and low morale. Things PTC won't overcome.

barnstormer
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:33 am

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by barnstormer »

DaveO wrote:....Personally, I would eliminate the current crew calling system. These are people, not robots.
Why can't the train crew have regular, unchanging, established shifts? That goes great with the in-vogue precision railroading the some rail whiz-bangs and wall street promote.
DaveO wrote:
Waddy wrote: You ever worked for a railroad before?
No.
As Bill Engvall would say.....Heeeeeere's your sign! :lol:

-barny

P.S.-- Always remember.....the man with the experience is never at the mercy of a man with an arguement!
(I have 20+ yrs. myself, and agree with Waddy!)

User avatar
justalurker66
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 am

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by justalurker66 »

Waddy wrote:The best move the railroads could have done to head off PTC is to treat their employees as humans.
The best move that the railroads could have done to head off PTC was to ***STOP WRECKING TRAINS***.

Every train wreck can be seen as a huge billboard put up by the railroad that says "somebody stop me". And while simpler systems than PTC could have prevented most if not all of those incidents the railroads failed to implement the simpler systems. In some cases the railroads failed to program their existing safety systems in a way that could prevent incidents. In most cases the railroads failed to extend safety systems to cover their entire railroad.

The billboards were read: "Dear regulators and Congress, we cannot run our trains safely. We have decided that it is cheaper to pay damages than to install systems that would prevent collisions. Are you going to do anything to stop us before we kill again?"

Most incidents come down to a human who failed. Some come down to two or more humans who failed to stop each other from failing.

While there have been incidents where the engineer or other person responsible was tired there are plenty of incidents where the party at fault was described by the NTSB as "well rested". Changing all railroading to shift work instead of having an extra board would not have prevented those incidents.

I am concerned with complacency but I believe that is balanced with the fear of losing the job. If an engineer sits back and lets the computer run the train they will get caught by the system. Violations where the engineer didn't handle the train within the parameters programmed in to the system (eg: did not slow the train faster than the braking curve PTC thought should be used or pulled up too close to a STOP signal while trying to clear the end of their train in a siding) will be recorded.

PTC is not designed to take over the engineer's job ... it is designed to take over for the conductor. If only they could program it to walk the train and set/unset hand brakes.

PatAzo
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Re: A Lil Story ABout PTC...good luck!

Unread post by PatAzo »

PTC is not going to run the train. Engineers won't setting back and letting the computer decide what to do. It's basically an enhanced and complex version of ATS. PTC will give them a warning if they are speeding, approaching the limits of the track they are authorized to occupy and stop the train if the engineer does not slow or stop. It will drive no more complacency than automatic block signals do today. Sure it will stop the train on it's own. Do you really think that will be penalty free? U.P. vehicles notify the safety department if seat belts are not buckled. You can bet PTC will be reporting if it has to intervene and stop the train.

Arguably had the railroads been more proactive they could have implemented an alternate and potentially lower cost solution. But if you look at the FRA accident statistics you will see the root of the argument against PTC. Most accidents are occurring in yards and situations where PTC will not offer any protection. The number of fatalities PTC will prevent is small compared to the cost. U.P. is spending $2.9B installing PTC. The FRA lists two fatalities due to accidents in 2014 and none in 2015-2017. I

Post Reply