bctrainfan wrote:There have been many plans for many years to build a bridge over the tracks downtown, always shot down by taxpayers and politicians, so I guess people will just have to wait! Pretty sure that Grand Elk is running more/longer trains recently than people had been seeing for a few years as well.
I don't see how there could be room for a bridge and approaches on each side. There just isn't enough room. I'd love to see a graphical rendering of that.
Doktor No wrote:JT, if you come to town just buy six and leave it in your front seat for those long delays...pass some around to the neighboring cars, make friends...influence people.
The last time I went to the Bell's store, I bought a case...so I'd probably be able to party with EVERYONE in line!
Last edited by J T on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimthias/
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
There is actually a graphic included in the article that started this thread of the 80's proposal:
Now, there are businesses which have moved in and those who've moved out since this proposal, but it could physically be done. As we've discussed in the Grand Elk thread, the easier thing would simply be to add a wye in the northeast quadrant.
I tried to zoom in to see all the bums in the trees alongside the bridge but I think they must've not been included. This area would be a wasteland today if they built this!
MiddleMI wrote:Kind of basic question, but does anyone have a map or at least description of who owns what downtown Kzoo? And by that I meant where each railroad ends and the other begins? I know generally that the Michigan Line crosses east-west and the Grand Elk north-south, but is the trackage Grand Elk uses to get to its yard owned by them or somewhere else, and where in Kzoo does CN begin/end?
Just trying to figure out which trains are causing the most problems. I hear people talk about trains out of the east, but I was under the impression there wasn't much running on the Michigan Line aside from Amtrak, and those trains wouldn't disrupt the busy east-west state highways through downtown would they? The yard is accessibly to NS from the east, right? In that case, I imagine it's Grand Elk switching that would back up the major crossings doing switching?
Just trying to visualize the movements causing the problems. Thanks.
Amtrak owns the main line west of BO (specifically west of the westernmost diamonds), the state owns it east of there. The rest of the track in town is owned by NS and operated by GDLK except for the CN line to Pavilion, which connects to the GDLK line to Upjohn at PJ, which is near the east end of Reed St. GDLK has rights on CN to just south of Kilgore Rd.
The delays are primarily caused by trains between Grand Rapids and Gearhart Yd. Northbound trains shove out of Gearhart onto the Michigan LIne to BO, then south .6 miles to Gibson (plus the length of the train to clear the switch) before heading north, and southbounds make the opposite move.
MiddleMI wrote:There is actually a graphic included in the article that started this thread of the 80's proposal:
Now, there are businesses which have moved in and those who've moved out since this proposal, but it could physically be done. As we've discussed in the Grand Elk thread, the easier thing would simply be to add a wye in the northeast quadrant.
No way is that physically realistic today.
Nice dreamy drawing though.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimthias/
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
I want to look at this issue from an operational standpoint.
When the Grand Elk gets their pickup in Elkhart, how are they blocked? Are they all mixed up and as such in need of substantial switching in K'zoo, or are they pretty much in order (K'zoo area, NS transfer, GR area). One of the main issues seems to be the cars going to GR that have to be pulled into the yard, then a train has to head west, then go back north.
If the cars are blocked by destination, couldn't Grand Elk run all the cars to GR on the north end of the train, and when they approach K'zoo, but off the power and allow the power for the GR train to come cut off their cars and head straight north, thus bypassing the need to yard the train.
Even if they could not create a yard, would it be possible to put in a siding or 2 from the main long enough to handle connecting groups of cars and thus avoid having to yard the Elkhart - K'zoo train completely.
Also, is there enough traffic to warrant a GR-Elkhart train on its own, like used to run in the Conrail days?
I proposed 3 years ago when the Jackson traffic came about that a third track at CP Park was needed just for the purpose you state. Power could be staged at GM siding and split the trains at Park and go on their way. With all the General managers they had back then none were here long enough to even consider it. There is enough room along 131 for a third track between the current siding and the power poles.
If South Yd was still in place in Kalamazoo, and the Grand Rapids traffic blocked in Elkhart, the road trains could have set out and picked up the GR traffic there. It would still require running the power from the Grand Rapids trains to/from Gearhart Yd though. So it wouldn't be of much benefit to the railroad, if any, considering the extra work the road crews would have to perform.
Like nearly all such agreements, there is no requirement for NS to block traffic for the Grand Elk, so the idea of a simple setout won’t work. GDLK has to work the kind to kick out the GR cars from the rest of them - it is not the NS’ job.
Saturnalia wrote:Like nearly all such agreements, there is no requirement for NS to block traffic for the Grand Elk, so the idea of a simple setout won’t work. GDLK has to work the kind to kick out the GR cars from the rest of them - it is not the NS’ job.
He didn't say it was NS's job, nor did he even imply it. He was simply gaming out a scenario.
Saturnalia wrote:Like nearly all such agreements, there is no requirement for NS to block traffic for the Grand Elk, so the idea of a simple setout won’t work. GDLK has to work the kind to kick out the GR cars from the rest of them - it is not the NS’ job.
So the question then is. How many different "trains" do the cars for K'zoo actually get broken up into? As far as I can tell, we are looking at 3 different locations for cars.
Cars to Grand Rapids
Cars to K'zoo to NS
Cars to K'zoo local GDLK
I saw it mentioned above, by Super Chief, a third track at CP Park could make a huge difference.
The way I would imagine the traffic being moved.
GDLK picks up the entire traffic cut in Elkhart and takes it to the siding at CP Park, which has added a third siding. GDLK has left power in Three Rivers to take the GR cut northbound.
The northbound from Elkhart switches the train on the main and sidings, putting the cars for GR in the siding, and leaving all the K'zoo cars together in one train. The GR cars are left and the power left in Three Rivers comes in and runs to Grand Rapids. The rest of the cars bound for K'zoo are taken to K'zoo and switched into either NS trains or GDLK local traffic. This will 1) shorten the train going into the yard at K'zoo and 2) Avoid the traffic headaches caused by trains having to move multiple directions doing north or coming from the north into K'zoo.
The GR traffic coming southbound will be left in the siding at CP Park (power does to the GM siding and ties down) and when the K'zoo Elkhart train comes south it will simply do a pickup of those cars.
It does create a potential issue in Three Rivers for traffic in and around Heimbach Rd, both other than that I don't see any huge drawbacks.
There are a few problems with the third track in Three rivers. First off trains leaving Elkhart are never on time so the GDLK wouldn't know when the train would arrive in three rivers. This could then end up blocking 501 or 503 for long periods of time. It also leaves out any CN or CSX traffic in Gearhart that is to go to GR. Plus building the train there would take a lot of time because the GR train has to be blocked with CSX cars, cars for GR and cars for customers along the way. And the Kzoo train has to be blocked into two blocks. All of this being done on three tracks, one of which is the main line.
It seems like there is really not a good way to solve this without substantially expanding the infrastructure the Elk has. Sure, there are costs to every plan, but it appears the costs that the Elk would face for any of these ideas outweigh the benefits.
South Yard: Need more power and it's on a grade, therefore slowing operations.
Third track in TR: Potential to stop 501 while 302 does its thing, therefore slowing down operations on the entire south end of the line as well as potentially delaying any cars due for NS or the 303 to GR (CSX, MQT, & GRE).
Connection directly from AML to the GDLK main (NE Connector): The price that would have to be paid in order to get the property and set Bell's up somewhere else and then build the connector would be pretty hefty, especially because it would interfere with WB Amtraks. This is all assuming Bell's even goes for the deal, which is far from certain.
North Yard: Completely rebuilding North Yard would probably be the most ideal out of all of these ideas. It would relieve a lot of pressure from Gearhart and you could theoretically base 303 directly out of that yard instead of Gearhart, thereby eliminating the need for 303 to traverse downtown. However, the downside is that a local would have to move from Gearhart to North and vice versa in order to get all the various cars to the right places, and I don't know how large said local would be. Additionally, GDLK would have to build an entire yard from scratch. That's a tall order, even for a large railroad. A shortline might not be able to do it.
the contents of the above post are my opinion and mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.
How much of a problem is it? Unlike say CSX in Plymouth the GDLK doesn't park trains on crossing and walk away. They will tie up Harrison and Walbridge when 302 doubles up a long train. But you're only two blocks away from getting around the train. The two hour delay was an unusual situation. One reality is that GDLK is a 150 mile long short line. They won't have the dough for any of the big construction projects. Financially it would need to be a project the people of Kalamazoo would support.
PatAzo wrote:How much of a problem is it? Unlike say CSX in Plymouth the GDLK doesn't park trains on crossing and walk away. They will tie up Harrison and Walbridge when 302 doubles up a long train. But you're only two blocks away from getting around the train. The two hour delay was an unusual situation. One reality is that GDLK is a 150 mile long short line. They won't have the dough for any of the big construction projects. Financially it would need to be a project the people of Kalamazoo would support.
Read the article at the beginning of the thread. It's not about delays on the northside, but delays south of BO, and more specifically about the crossings at the state highways which not only throws off individual auto traffic, but wrecks havoc on Metro Transit bus schedules.
I read both articles. My question is how big a problem is it meaning is it a big enough problem the city residents will be willing to participate in a solution?
