Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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dave989
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

Unread post by dave989 »

I think the 2 words are "Grade Separation" . The problems exist in Holland & Kalamazoo on the west side
of the state. Battle Creek solved the problem in the 80's by moving the Conrail line onto the Grand Trunk
thru town plus constructing new overpasses at Washington Ave. and Emmett Street.

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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

Doktor No wrote:Hey NYCMan, CSX won all their court cases in Federal Court including a cease and desist order against the city police. Same in Holland, Michigan. And #2, they can't come onto the property without a warrant. That would get the case thrown out real fast...something about private property rights I think. The courts pretty much said that if said railroads are following federal rules...like stopping for red signals, making pickups and then doing federally mandated brake tests....there is nothing they can do. Again federal law usurps local law every time. Thusly there is no more blocking crossings law...not enforceable.
Not to say its not a PIA and CSX really should find some way to fix this (doubt they really give a rip though).

I was about to say the same thing. I know that the residents around Kalamazoo are starting to get pissed because Grand Elk has to take it slow around the wye at BO and then come back up again (for the GR road train). They want the city to either ticket them for blocking the crossings or stop the trains from running altogether, neither of which are likely.

Grade separation is not possible in downtown Kalamazoo; the tracks are literally feet from various structures.
:roll:

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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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NSSD70ACe wrote:I know that the residents around Kalamazoo are starting to get pissed because Grand Elk has to take it slow around the wye at BO and then come back up again (for the GR road train). They want the city to either ticket them for blocking the crossings or stop the trains from running altogether, neither of which are likely.

Grade separation is not possible in downtown Kalamazoo; the tracks are literally feet from various structures.
The solution in Kzoo is possible, if the local pols and MDOT/Amtrak/GDLK can grease the skids and get it done.

Option one is the simplest, where they'd need the vacate the lot between the GR&I, Willard, Ransom and Porter Sts, and then build a connector in the NW Quadrant. Bell's and one other business would have to be appeased. No track removed, just the new connector and a RH crossover from track 1 to 2 farther to the east.

Option 2 is to get fancy, and bypass the GR&I from Mosel St all the way to Gibson with a new connector on vacant land up by Mosel St, and then add a new connector in the NW quadrant at BO. This would again require a fair amount of land acquisition, but when you look at it from the long-term perspective it might not be a bad move. It'd result in the elimination of two diamonds, 11 grade crossings, and about 2 miles of railroad right-of-way, so the City can do other things like promote "multi-modal" transportation for folks who like walking, biking, etc.

In these two images I just doodled on, the existing Amtrak/MDOT Michigan Line is in maroon, the GDLK in Yellow, the new track in blue, and removed track in red.

Downtown Kzoo at BO Tower
Kzoo1.jpg
Up north, a new connector to eliminate the GR&I through downtown.
Kzoo2.jpg
Kalamazoo is a classic case of the current railroad arrangement being a combination of multiple former railroads, where today's contemporary is forced to be one railroad on three different, previously completely separate, railroads. Given some re-combination tactics like new connectors, the situation can be vastly improved.

Battle Creek and Escanaba are excellent examples of this sort of thinking, and both towns live pretty much at piece with some fairly busy railroads.
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

As much as I like the idea, Bell's would be pissed. There's already a fight smoldering downtown because of a lack of parking for Bell's (and numerous other areas) and I doubt they'd separate with their one dedicated parking lot unless they were either given land or a extremely large sum of money.

Also, the parking lot provides a nice location to watch the Elk use the wye without trespassing. :lol:
:roll:

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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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NSSD70ACe wrote:As much as I like the idea, Bell's would be pissed. There's already a fight smoldering downtown because of a lack of parking for Bell's (and numerous other areas) and I doubt they'd separate with their one dedicated parking lot unless they were either given land or a extremely large sum of money.

Also, the parking lot provides a nice location to watch the Elk use the wye without trespassing. :lol:
If the GDLK was removed through downtown, the city could add a ton of angle parking and Bell's could expand their lots thanks to taking over the old GDLK ROW. That's all part of swapping parcels around. It works, but the people involved need to want it to happen and see the benefits.
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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The trains blocking crossings for hours are awaiting recrews.
For 6 to 9 hours? They know when and where the crews are going to die on time. They should have a crew ready. I also doubt the engines are breaking down that often. Safe to say, CSX is a piss poor corporate citizen.
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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hoborich wrote:
The trains blocking crossings for hours are awaiting recrews.
For 6 to 9 hours? They know when and where the crews are going to die on time. They should have a crew ready. I also doubt the engines are breaking down that often. Safe to say, CSX is a piss poor corporate citizen.
When you run trains that are too long, they don't fit anywhere, so when they outlaw, they're going to block *something*
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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When you run trains that are too long, they don't fit anywhere, so when they outlaw, they're going to block *something*
My point was that they know when the crews are going to outlaw. And 6 to 9 hours to recrew is unreasonable! If you know a crew will outlaw at 3:00 pm, then you have another crew called for 3:00pm or shortly after.
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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hoborich wrote:And 6 to 9 hours to recrew is unreasonable! If you know a crew will outlaw at 3:00 pm, then you have another crew called for 3:00pm or shortly after.
Can't call a crew if none are rested.
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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hoborich wrote:
When you run trains that are too long, they don't fit anywhere, so when they outlaw, they're going to block *something*
My point was that they know when the crews are going to outlaw. And 6 to 9 hours to recrew is unreasonable! If you know a crew will outlaw at 3:00 pm, then you have another crew called for 3:00pm or shortly after.
Oh my God why didn’t we think of that!

And after all these years we have been waiting to order a re crew until a couple of hours after the crew went on the law. Who knew it was so simple and there wasn’t anything else causing issues.:roll:

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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

Unread post by hoborich »

Can't call a crew if none are rested.
Then hire more people if this is a recurring problem, instead of screwing entire communities just because you were there first. :evil:
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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hoborich wrote:
Can't call a crew if none are rested.
Then hire more people if this is a recurring problem, instead of screwing entire communities just because you were there first. :evil:
What about how it takes some time to get crews to transfer around or new hires trained?

Crew management simply isn't fast and easy...and moves much slower than the quick change of pace Harrison's operating plans have.

It's still amazing to me how long Plymouth has been able to deal with CSX with all of the slow traffic over the years, and NOT have installed more overpasses.
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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

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NSSD70ACe wrote:I was about to say the same thing. I know that the residents around Kalamazoo are starting to get pissed because Grand Elk has to take it slow around the wye at BO and then come back up again (for the GR road train). They want the city to either ticket them for blocking the crossings or stop the trains from running altogether, neither of which are likely.

Grade separation is not possible in downtown Kalamazoo; the tracks are literally feet from various structures.
It's possible. The city had a scheme for grade separation back in the 80's. The voters shot it down when they went to the polls for financing. This was back when Conrail ran six or more road trains through town and more local work than GDLK does.
Saturnalia wrote:The solution in Kzoo is possible, if the local pols and MDOT/Amtrak/GDLK can grease the skids and get it done.
It was a lost opportunity when Amtrak reworked the signals and cross overs. Swing north through the parking lot like you showed and connect to the GR&I through the old Checker property. Win win for everyone. GDLK, Amtrak and the city.

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Re: Plymouth city CSX road blocking email

Unread post by hoborich »

It's still amazing to me how long Plymouth has been able to deal with CSX with all of the slow traffic over the years, and NOT have installed more overpasses.
Maybe they weren't needed until now. Overpasses are expensive, and probably something MDOT should be doing. And who could have foreseen parking 200 car trains all the way through town for 6 to 9 hours. I don't think any reasonable person would have imagined 200 car trains blocking the town, just a couple years ago, and an arrogant corporation saying "we were here first. Deal with it"!
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