Freep Michigan Central Station Article

[Burb8145]

Surprised no one else posted this yet.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/2017/0 ... 534609001/

I think this redevelopment would work well if combined with the redevelopment of Roosevelt Park, new residential development between the station and the Tiger Stadium site and a new Q-Line branch along Michigan to at least 14th Street.

But what could be possible is adapting it into an actual train station again and with the current and proposed passenger railroad services it could get interesting. Start with the Wolverine and you get a total of six trains instantly.

Now add the RTA's (still being) proposed commuter train to Ann Arbor which on a weekday would have about a total of 10-12 trains and you could have up to 18 trains.

Add the proposed services from Detroit to Grand Rapids (which would likely add stations in Livonia/Plymouth and Howell/Brighton at least) and Toledo (which would also likely add stations in Wyandotte and Monroe) and you'd have up to 24 trains.

If you add the proposed addition of a long-distance service in Michigan (either through extending the Pennsylvanian west or through a reroute of the Lake Shore Limited) you can have up to 26, even 28 trains if both long-distance proposals go through.

[TrainWatcher]

While I am all for this in the aspect of historical preservation, I don't see it. Do you realize how much Amtrak or MDOT (and really it'll be MDOT) would have to put into the project to get the Wolverine back Downtown? It'd make sense if there was a train that connected thru Windsor, but to basically go down on a stub track to the depot, to then have to go back out to Scotten to then go back north to Pontiac makes completely no sense as far as business. IF the Commuter Rail failure ever got up and running, again there'd be a better possibility. But to relay even 2-3 tracks, upgrade the dilapidated train sheds, signals, and all that your talking easily in the range of $50+ million. That isn't going to happen unless the State approves of that.

[Burb8145]

While I am all for this in the aspect of historical preservation, I don't see it. Do you realize how much Amtrak or MDOT (and really it'll be MDOT) would have to put into the project to get the Wolverine back Downtown? It'd make sense if there was a train that connected thru Windsor, but to basically go down on a stub track to the depot, to then have to go back out to Scotten to then go back north to Pontiac makes completely no sense as far as business. IF the Commuter Rail failure ever got up and running, again there'd be a better possibility. But to relay even 2-3 tracks, upgrade the dilapidated train sheds, signals, and all that your talking easily in the range of $50+ million. That isn't going to happen unless the State approves of that.

But at least if the commuter rail and Q-Line extension do get up and running, we could have a good number of traffic generated.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

While I am all for this in the aspect of historical preservation, I don't see it. Do you realize how much Amtrak or MDOT (and really it'll be MDOT) would have to put into the project to get the Wolverine back Downtown? It'd make sense if there was a train that connected thru Windsor, but to basically go down on a stub track to the depot, to then have to go back out to Scotten to then go back north to Pontiac makes completely no sense as far as business. IF the Commuter Rail failure ever got up and running, again there'd be a better possibility. But to relay even 2-3 tracks, upgrade the dilapidated train sheds, signals, and all that your talking easily in the range of $50+ million. That isn't going to happen unless the State approves of that.

But at least if the commuter rail and Q-Line extension do get up and running, we could have a good number of traffic generated.

As long as the communities who would benefit from it pay for it. I'm tired of watching my tax money wasted on projects that really only benefit the city of Detroit and its residents. If Detroit and the surrounding communities want that sort of rail service, let them pay for it, and the work necessary to operate the service.

[M.D.Bentley]

I think that they have already started collecting money for the depot. Their crowd funding people are at every intersection and freeway ramp. They should have enough soon.

[Steve B]

While I am all for this in the aspect of historical preservation, I don't see it. Do you realize how much Amtrak or MDOT (and really it'll be MDOT) would have to put into the project to get the Wolverine back Downtown? It'd make sense if there was a train that connected thru Windsor, but to basically go down on a stub track to the depot, to then have to go back out to Scotten to then go back north to Pontiac makes completely no sense as far as business. IF the Commuter Rail failure ever got up and running, again there'd be a better possibility. But to relay even 2-3 tracks, upgrade the dilapidated train sheds, signals, and all that your talking easily in the range of $50+ million. That isn't going to happen unless the State approves of that.

But at least if the commuter rail and Q-Line extension do get up and running, we could have a good number of traffic generated.

As long as the communities who would benefit from it pay for it. I'm tired of watching my tax money wasted on projects that really only benefit the city of Detroit and its residents. If Detroit and the surrounding communities want that sort of rail service, let them pay for it, and the work necessary to operate the service.

Since you're using that logic, I don't want my state gas taxes to help pay for maintenance on Business Loop 69/94 in downtown Port Huron. It mostly benefits Port Huron residents, after all. Same goes for M-5 where it ends in Walled Lake. I don't plan on driving M-77 into Grand Marais anytime soon, either.

[Saturnalia]

MDOT is going to prioritize any major funding they get for finishing the project they already started on the AML. They have ITCS to install and they haven't yet been able to touch the Jackson-Ypsi segment of the route for curve adjustments. Good thing is the plans are ready, it just needs funding.

Sounds like MDOT is holding out hope for a large grant or two in the next year or so, or else they're going to look at taking each curve at a time and doing a couple per year out of the more general MDOT budget.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Since you're using that logic, I don't want my state gas taxes to help pay for maintenance on Business Loop 69/94 in downtown Port Huron. It mostly benefits Port Huron residents, after all. Same goes for M-5 where it ends in Walled Lake. I don't plan on driving M-77 into Grand Marais anytime soon, either.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to spend the tax revenue collected locally on local projects? Keep gas tax revenue in the UP for UP projects, gas tax revenue from St. Clair County in St Clair County and gas tax revenue from Wayne County in Wayne County. Or sales tax or any other tax revenue. Minus a (very) small percentage to cover shared state level expenses. It makes more sense than taxing you to fix bridges in my area that you'll never drive on, or taxing me to repave roads in Marquette...

When everything goes into one big pot, to be distributed across the state with no acknowledgement of where most of it came from (probably SE Michigan, but who's counting?), it becomes too easy to dole out funding to any project that comes along, regardless of who needs are being served by said project. In this case, is it more important to invest in a rail system that will likely never pay for itself (i.e. where revenues cover continuing maintenance plus salaries and equipment upgrades/replacement over time) and serves a relatively small portion of the people whose tax dollars are supporting it (how many of the people who live close enough to the stations served by the AML actually use the AML?), or should the tax revenue be spent on the infrastructure taxpayers in this state actually use on a daily basis? I get that you may ride the train, and you're a tax payer, and that most of Amtrak's customers do the same, but the passenger volume carried by Amtrak between PH and Chicago or Detroit and Chicago is a drop in the bucket as compared to the freeway routes between the same two city pairs, which coincidentally serve dozens of communities that Amtrak does not.

I'm getting a little off track here. My point was that if tax revenue is going to be spent on a project, it should be coming from the communities that will benefit from the project, not from everybody else. If this project will provide as great a benefit to Detroit as some believe that it will, perhaps a tax millage in Detroit would raise the necessary funds to revitalize the old MC station in a way that will support additional economic development in the area around the station, without the state getting involved, especially since the project would have the most benefit in certain parts of Detroit, not in Jackson or Niles or Lansing.

In the Chicago area, the counties served by Metra pay an additional tax to support Metra. It's one of the reasons Metra service hasn't been extended to DeKalb. If the state wants to run commuter service between Ann Arbor and anywhere else, the quickest way to get such a project off the ground is local funding. I'm probably wrong on this, but everything I can recall seeing about the proposed commuter service in the AA/Detroit areas was supposed to rely on MDOT funding. When MDOT funding comes from a giant pot, shared by every project across the state, it's no wonder the service hasn't started yet. If they're serious about running the service, it should be locally funded and locally controlled.

In short, across the state local municipalities have had to raise local taxes to cover local projects that serve their taxpayers. MDOT funds should be paying for projects that benefit the majority of the tax payers in Michigan, not the local community that surrounds a building in Detroit. If it's that important to restore service to the MC Depot, let the citizens of Detroit, especially in the areas that will benefit the most from a busy/active passenger terminal, raise the money to make this plan come to life. After all, they're the ones who will reap most of the benefits. And, for the record, this shouldn't necessarily be a personal tax penalty. If the depot reopens and if it becomes a major passenger terminal serving Detroit and some surrounding communities, it won't be the individuals who will reap most of the benefits- it will be the businesses surrounding the station who will benefit the most. An economic development area can be put in place now so that if the project comes to fruition, additional funding will become available as more businesses open in the areas immediately adjacent to the station and the surrounding areas. After all, isn't one of the supposed benefits of a revitalized MC depot a reason for people to relocate into the surrounding neighborhoods, drawn by the prospect of entertainment, employment and retail that goes far beyond the environment of the neighborhood liquor store?

[Saturnalia]

The problem with the "let the locals fund it" argument is that in reality, the needs of transportation are not directly correlated with population and the tax base.

Imagine if we made each county pay for the interstates through it. Now those counties with interstates are going to be slammed with costs, whilst counties without interstates get off free. Except, we all know everybody uses in the interstates. Alpena county doesn't have an interstate, but you can bet most stuff gets there that way.

Transportation is necessarily crowdfunded and not necessarily evenly applied. If we want great major arteries, a higher power than the local road authority is going to have to pay for them. This is why Interstates are Federal-Aid (tying the country together), M-routes are run at the state level (tying the state together), and then those small local roads, used almost only by the locals, are handled by the locals.

It is also much more efficient for a "higher power" to delegate funds, since they have the capital, being larger organizations, to fund the later projects when and where necessary.

Now, to the Cook County Example. Metra is a commuter service. So is the CTA. So the taxes from Cook County and the surrounding area are hiked a bit to support that. This does work for services used by the locals. Very few CTA and Metra ridership comes from people living outside their service areas.

Therein lies the problem with Amtrak, and its stations. It isn't really a local deal. These aren't commuter trains. Yes, I agree that the locality should give monetary support to their station facilities in particular. But when it comes to actually running the service, the City of Dearborn shouldn't be expected to support the whole cost of the new station, and the reinstalled second track, because it serves much more than just Dearborn residents.

Should only Wayne County be responsible for funding the airport? Of course not. Only a small fraction of the users at the airport are actually from Wayne County.

When it comes to broader transportation policy, it almost never can be just local based. If we did that, there'd be no hope for our major connectors, arteries and interstates. It all works out to a much more balanced scheme. Sure, some places claim to be ripped off, but that's only the case sometimes, when you look only at the direct impacts. The cost of infrastructure is a cost of living in a developed nation.

Now as far as subsidies for Amtrak, and keep in mind that I'm a right-winger, it's hard to argue that they're worthless. Sure, it is thus far a small percentage of our transportation ridership, but the point isn't to make money, it is to have smart transportation policy. And if the long-term goal is to grow the system, then we're going to have to put money into it.

If you looked at tax monies flowing to roads and to airports, you'd also find loss. The only reason Amtrak gets perennially crapped on by fiscal hawks is that it is a single organization with a profit-loss report.

[j32885]

Guess this is Semi-Good News For MCS. There's a lot of chatter over at the DetroitYes Board about the recent MCS News. Here's the link:

DetroitYes/Freep On Developing The Michigan Central Station Thread
https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthrea ... al-Station

Lot-Of-Talk there about tieing MCS into current Amtrak trains.

Now Here's The Freshwater Transit Concept About Using MCS As Part of NEW Commuter Rail System
http://fwrail.org/fwinfo/sm_rail.pdf

Personally, IF ANY Passenger Trains were to Return To MCS, We Could Get The probably get the following:

Amtrak: 6 Daily Chicago-Detroit Michigan Trains (Wolverine)
+ 2 Grand Rapids/Lansing/Detroit Train (Pere Marquette) [Being Pushed By MARP/Michigan By Rail Groups]
+ 2 Chicago/Detroit/Toronto Train (International Wolverine) [Could See Transport Canada Getting Involved In This Kind Of Project]
+ 2 Detroit/Buffalo/New York City Train (Empire State Express) [By Way Thru Canada]
+ 2 Detroit/Toledo/Cleveland/Pittsburgh Train (Keystone Wolverine) [Being Pushed By All Aboard Ohio Group]
+ 2 Pontiac/Detroit/Toledo Train (Mercury Service)
+ 2 Detroit/Toledo/Cleveland Train (Mercury Service)
+ 2 Pontiac/Detroit/Toledo/Dayton/Cincinnati Train (The Cincinnatian)

MiTrain: 6-7 Daily Commuter Trains Jackson-Ann Arbor-Detroit
+ Toledo-Detroit Train Service
+ Flint-Pontiac-Detroit Train Service
+ Howell-Plymouth-Detroit Train Service
+ Port Huron-Mt. Clemens-Detroit Train Service

VIA: 2 Daily Detroit-Toronto Ontario Trains (Corridor)

Q-Line: Daily Michigan Ave-Woodard Ave Trolley Service

RTA-SMART-DDOT: Daily Michigan Ave Bus Services

We'll going to wait and see what the outcome will be from that Detroit Homecoming event being held there.

Enjoy! ^_^

[Saturnalia]

While I am highly skeptical of any cross-border trains, and trains to Ohio, at least in the near-term, MDOT has studied a 10-daily round trip Wolverine Schedule, 3 turns of which would not go to Pontiac. There is no mention in the study of using Michigan Central Station in any of it.

Now if you want some good reading, here is the study. This was back when everybody was going gangbusters on TIGER and thought the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative might come to fruition on a grand scale.

They studied different ways to construct double-track dedicated passenger mains from CUS to Porter for the Wolverine, Blue Water, Pere Marquette, and the rest of the eastern fleet. It's great reading because in one of the options they propose a half-dozen flyovers to get out of Chicago. At the very least, they want to add double track north of the existing Chicago Line from Englewood to Porter, recommissioning the old lift bridges. Why? They project, between MDOT and the rest, 56 passenger trains from CUS to Porter.

Now that is highly unlikely in the short to mid-term, but what the study does tell us is that first and foremost, MDOT must construct an additional lead track at Wayne to allow for NS to work the yard (per the purchase agreement), before any additional passenger services can be run. It also calls for additional capacity in many places. AA-Ypsi Double track is pretty much required for any commuter operations.

So long story short, ambitious the state is, but it is also slim pickings on the money tree. They're just trying to finish Jackson to Ypsi at this point.

Link:
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-1 ... --,00.html

[Steve B]

Thank you, Saturnalia, for expanding on my brief comment. It's also worth noting that about 1/3 of MDOT's budget comes from the feds. Federal money is spent not just on Interstates, but on other routes that comprise the "National Highway System" of important links, among many others US-127, US-10, parts of M-54, and M-115.

[tadman]

I so hope to see MCS be revitalized, but is it a good train station anymore? At least any better than the current location?

Think of it this way - neither is in a great location RE downtown. One is oversized, one is undersized. Neither are walking distance (2.5m MCS to Joe Muers, 3.7 New Center to Joe Muers) The current station, however, is on the current route, is on light rail to downtown, and is in an area seeing lightening growth. MCS is not any of the above. Wouldn't it make more sense to build a useful new right-sized station at the current spot than move operations to MCS?

Please don't mistake this for bad wishes to befall MCS. I hope Google or GM or some company buys it and puts 400 well-paid workers in it and a zillion dollars. But it might not be a good train station anymore. Perhaps this is like Musee d'Orsay, a stunning one-time station now an art museum in Paris.

[hoborich]

Even if it became a train station, what becomes of the 20 or so floors above the main concourse? I suspect those new windows are about the only improvements that have been made.

[Burb8145]

Chose to bump this because...we actually have more news.

It's been revealed that Moroun's main tenant for MCS once restoration is complete will be...passenger railroads!

What he has envisioned includes a direct train to Detroit Metro Airport, high-speed Amtrak service to Chicago and a connection to VIA in Windsor, as well as a new Q-Line branch along Michigan Avenue to connect directly to MCS.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20 ... pot-trains

[tadman]

Call me a cynic, but my read-between-the-lines here is something like this "wow if only the state would fund umpteen trains and have them pay me rent, MCS would be a moneymaker". Yeah, if I had a super model and $1m I'd be the coolest guy ever, but I don't. I have to get by on my looks alone.

What would we get out of an airport express train to MCS? A quick way to get 3 mile from downtown? Would make much more sense going to the old footprint of Brush Street Station.

[jrgerber]

http://www.freep.com/story/money/2017/0 ... 661865001/

[NYCMan]

Although I would love to see the Michigan Central Station back in useful shape, I highly doubt that it will ever come to fruition. How beautiful she was, and still has outward beauty. I worked there, now over 40 years ago. (Gosh, I feel old.) She is 104 years old, older than me, and will likely outlive me.

And, she did not have 20 or so floors. Main floor, Level A, Level B, Level C, and then Floors 1-13. 12 and 13 were unfinished with bare wood floors. There was also a basement and a sub-basement.

As far as trains "in the future", do not forget to include the pie-in-the-sky Detroit-Traverse City commuter trains, too.

Maroun is a billionaire. You do not see him whipping out his wallet with any speed. He "replaced" the windows only because he was forced too. You can be certain that Maroun intends to only spend Other People's Money (OPM) on any renovation project, and even then, a big chunk of that OPM will go into his pocket as his "commission."

[Michael]

Detroit's Michigan Central Station lights up for first guests since 1980s

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index ... centr.html

[MSchwiebert]

This would require Ohio to think beyond the "3C" corridor - and none of the advocacy groups (OARP) etc. are willing to let that boondoggle of an idea go....

Guess this is Semi-Good News For MCS. There's a lot of chatter over at the DetroitYes Board about the recent MCS News. Here's the link:

DetroitYes/Freep On Developing The Michigan Central Station Thread
https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthrea ... al-Station

Lot-Of-Talk there about tieing MCS into current Amtrak trains.

Now Here's The Freshwater Transit Concept About Using MCS As Part of NEW Commuter Rail System
http://fwrail.org/fwinfo/sm_rail.pdf

Personally, IF ANY Passenger Trains were to Return To MCS, We Could Get The probably get the following:

Amtrak: 6 Daily Chicago-Detroit Michigan Trains (Wolverine)
+ 2 Grand Rapids/Lansing/Detroit Train (Pere Marquette) [Being Pushed By MARP/Michigan By Rail Groups]
+ 2 Chicago/Detroit/Toronto Train (International Wolverine) [Could See Transport Canada Getting Involved In This Kind Of Project]
+ 2 Detroit/Buffalo/New York City Train (Empire State Express) [By Way Thru Canada]
+ 2 Detroit/Toledo/Cleveland/Pittsburgh Train (Keystone Wolverine) [Being Pushed By All Aboard Ohio Group]
+ 2 Pontiac/Detroit/Toledo Train (Mercury Service)
+ 2 Detroit/Toledo/Cleveland Train (Mercury Service)
+ 2 Pontiac/Detroit/Toledo/Dayton/Cincinnati Train (The Cincinnatian)

MiTrain: 6-7 Daily Commuter Trains Jackson-Ann Arbor-Detroit
+ Toledo-Detroit Train Service
+ Flint-Pontiac-Detroit Train Service
+ Howell-Plymouth-Detroit Train Service
+ Port Huron-Mt. Clemens-Detroit Train Service

VIA: 2 Daily Detroit-Toronto Ontario Trains (Corridor)

Q-Line: Daily Michigan Ave-Woodard Ave Trolley Service

RTA-SMART-DDOT: Daily Michigan Ave Bus Services

We'll going to wait and see what the outcome will be from that Detroit Homecoming event being held there.

Enjoy! ^_^