Flint area Question

[chapmaja]

Ok, I was looking at Google Maps tonight and noticed something interesting. I know CSX has a small yard on what I think was the old mainline into Flint. This yard is just to the northwest of the current mainline north of Maple Rd. It appears to be used for car storage and possibly to serve a couple industries right near the yard. The part I wonder about is the 2 sidings off the current main to the east of this yard. They are still connected to the mainline on the south end, but on the north end they connected to what was the second (now removed) mainline. Are there plans to put a switch off the main south of Bristol Rd to connect these tracks to the remaining mainline on the north end, or will they just remain connected on the south end as they currently are?

Also, I know CSX relocated the mainline (or the prior companies). What was the original alignment of the tracks through Flint as it related to current locations. I can follow it up to I69 I think, but lose the ROW as it gets around 2nd street. I assume it once crossed the Flint River into the GM Buick City complex, correct? Was this on the bridge that is now a pedestrian bridge?

Next, regarding McGrew Yard? I know there is a north and south portion of the yard. Why two portions with the same name? Were they once different yards? Was the southern portion used to serve the Buick City plant, while the north yard was the used to service other customers around Flint? Did they at one time have different names?

Also, which trains currently operate in and around Flint on CSX? I know there is a Q-train pair that runs Toledo to Flint. There is a local that runs Flint to Port Huron as well. The LSRC runs 1-2 trains to interchange with CSX as well. What train services McGrew and the surrounding customers? Is that a yard job, or is that done by a local? What local runs from Plymouth to Flint, and are there really many customers between the cities needing service?

[Saturnalia]

You're correct in your assumption that the original PM main passed up through downtown and via the Buick City, relocated for obvious reasons, along with the Grand Trunk.

[AARR]

CSX customers in Flint are handled by a turn out of Plymouth which I think runs three days per week. Flint no longer has a yard switcher assigned to it.

[Steve B]

The current CSX line was built in 1922 as the Flint Belt RR, a PM subsidiary, but I think it was always just a "paper" company until merging into C&O in 1955. The old main remained in one piece until 1972, when it was removed initially from just north of Kearsley St. to Avon St. Until that time, daily trains went through downtown from Fisher Body on S. Saginaw to Buick. After that, they used the Atwood Wye on S. Dort to loop around. The southerly old main remnant served a warehouse on Kearsley St. until the early '80s. It served Fisher Body until that plant closed in 1987, then was cut back to just past the Atwood Wye, then to Dort Hwy.

The northerly remnant was eventually removed south of Hamilton Ave. after the Dupont complex closed.

The PM/C&O passenger depot was at the corner of Beach & Union Streets downtown, torn down in the '50s for a parking lot (what else).

[jimnorthwood]

My old stomping grounds, a long time ago. I saw more of the old GTW main than the old CSX main through Flint. That said the last activity I recall on the Kearsley St remnant noted by Steve B before I left the area was a couple of boxcars sitting on the Atlas Warehouse lead, which branched off the former main there. That was in about 1983. I think the last customer on the Kearsley remnant before it was pulled was Dover & Company on Hall Street. The Art Train parked there around that time, too. CSX kept a long string of white lined boxcars, headed for the scrapper, on the Kearsley segment during this period, too. The grandmother of a friend told me that when she was growing up during the depression they lived in Hall Flats. She said the then Pere Marquette train crews would throw the kids coal for home heating and sometimes as a treat, a watermelon.

[Steve B]

Glad to read your memories about this line again, Jim. I didn't know about Dover & Co. Their presence explains why the line was kept to a point between Second St. & Grand Traverse St., after pulling it from there to just north of Kearsley when the Atlas Warehouse stopped shipments.

I remember reading in an early '90s issue of the C&OHS Magazine a notice from the Federal Register about abandonment between the Atwood Wye and Second St. I just tried to track it down on the Library of Congress Federal Register site but it's an eye crossing process; you have to blindly check every page listed under CSX abandonments until you stumble on the right one.

I cropped this 1967 Flint aerial image from the Earth Explorer USGS site, which has thousands of aerial photos. It requires a bit of practice to use the site but is well worth it! The C&O old main goes from lower left to upper right, and the photo covers the segment abandoned in 1972.

I should add that the USGS site is completely free to use, all public domain, you just have to create a login. Enjoy it while we can...

[chapmaja]

The current CSX line was built in 1922 as the Flint Belt RR, a PM subsidiary, but I think it was always just a "paper" company until merging into C&O in 1955. The old main remained in one piece until 1972, when it was removed initially from just north of Kearsley St. to Avon St. Until that time, daily trains went through downtown from Fisher Body on S. Saginaw to Buick. After that, they used the Atwood Wye on S. Dort to loop around. The southerly old main remnant served a warehouse on Kearsley St. until the early '80s. It served Fisher Body until that plant closed in 1987, then was cut back to just past the Atwood Wye, then to Dort Hwy.

The northerly remnant was eventually removed south of Hamilton Ave. after the Dupont complex closed.

The PM/C&O passenger depot was at the corner of Beach & Union Streets downtown, torn down in the '50s for a parking lot (what else).

So I'm still a bit confused. I see where the tracks crossed under the CN tracks, south of south of West 12th St. They then appeared to go under I69, then continued NNW across Fenton Rd and Court St, then the trail seems to turn cold. Did the line then turn NE towards the Flint River? (ironically, there are still tracks visible into the Flint Tool and Die plant on Kearsley St.) From my guestimations, it would then have run through what is now the UM-Flint Campus. Did it use what is now the pedestrian bridge for UM-Flint? (much like the ped bridge in GR by GVSU was once a railroad bridge)? This would make sense given the location of the old passenger depot.

What might be confusing me as well is the statement that it was cut from Avon St to Kearsley in the early 1970's. The line as I see it does not appear to run between Avon St and Kearsely St (as they are currently drawn). Did Avon St at one time continue north of 475 until 475 opened? I could see Avon St possibly extending at least to, if not across the Flint river at one time.

Tracking further, it is mentioned that the line served the warehouse (Flint Tool and Die mentioned above) near Kearsley, and the Fisher Body plant. The Fisher Body plant appears to have been on S. Saginaw near Atherton correct. Was this plant switched from a siding originating under 475?

Once the line from Kearsely to Avon St was cut, splitting the line in to, trains used the Atwood Wye to run from the Fisher body plant to Buick City. Was the Atwood wye the ROW that appears to run from the current mainline curving around south of Red Arrow Rd connecting to the line north of Bristol Rd?

Also, while we are talking about this line, was there once a yard located north of Bristol Rd on this section of tracks. I notice the large open green space from Dort all the way to Hemphill. I could see this as having once been a railroad yard in Flint. Was this the case? Was this just wide property for the overhead power lines?



Also, where did the CN "old main" run through Flint before it was relocated? I know where it was on the west side of town. Was it what is now the connector from CSX to CN on the east side? Where did in run through the middle of Flint? I see the Genesee Valley Trail running through the west side of Flint, and some bridge abutments that appear to be along the old main. Was their a diamond where UM-Flint now stands? I could see the CN old main running across there as well, then running along the shoreline of the river then running along Logway Blvd. Was this correct? Also, what was the plant near Stevenson and Kearsley that is long gone, but still have tracks in the ground?

(We have Latson Rd that was cut and renamed near Howell for many years until Latson road was built across I96 with an interchange. The southern portion went back to Latson from Nixon which it was after the expressway was built).

[jimnorthwood]

Steve B is the go to guy on this board for all things Flint railroading (and other locations as well). Growing up I lived within a short bike ride of the old GTW main through downtown, so much greater familiarity with that line. The old GTW main through downtown Flint crossed the old PM main east of the Flint River. I believe there was a diamond there, and an interchange track as well. The old GTW main through downtown was severed circa the early 1960's (the old C&O main lasted about ten years longer). Coming from the west it ran through Chevy in the Hole, and through what is now the UM-F campus. On the east side, the track that CSX trains use to connect to the CN current main is indeed the old GTW main. The west side was gradually cut back in stages, with the biggest cut being when Chevy in the Hole closed. I believe this was in the 1990's, but I can't recall for sure. The line was cut back first to Corunna road yard, where gas tanks were transhipped. Then to Lennon Road, and Linden Road. I believe they still serve GM SPO (or whatever it is called now) today. I think the only purpose the east remnant serves today is to connect the CSX main with the new CN main. Again, Steve B. knows the answers here.

[chapmaja]

Thanks, between the posts in this topic and the photos I found online, I have gotten a real sense of the locations both current and former of Flint, and sadly, the downfall of what was once a great industrial city. It's amazingly sad how far things have fallen in Flint. Looking at the google maps I can still see tracks in the old Buick City complex and at the old Chevy in the Hole complex. To think these tracks once saw many cars daily moved over them and now they are scars on an empty barren concrete flat is really sad.

[Steve B]

I know this stuff is better suited to the history board, but oh well. I've made a couple screenshots from the USGS site of 1954 Flint aerials. View them at full size to read my small captions. Chapmaja, I labeled various areas on Avon St. Much of that area is unrecognizable now, with "urban renewal," R.T. Longway extension and I-475 obliterating huge swaths. The topo map shows the old mains, though without the diamond.

I have no idea how often Flint Tool & Die's (Chevy Plant 38) rail spur was utilized, probably not much. The spur was there before the plant, appearing to have served a coal dealer. Fisher Body #1 was on S. Saginaw between Atherton and Hemphill. It closed in 1987 and was demolished the next year. Yes, C&O's lead into the plant came off the old main near I-475. Yes, the Atwood Wye paralleled Red Arrow Rd. There was never a yard along Bristol. After Atwood Yard, the next one north on the old main was just west of Saginaw St. by Fisher Body.

Jimnorthwood, I only wish I was the go-to guy on Flint info! The more bits of info I pick up, the more I realize I don't know. Compared with Durand, Detroit or Grand Rapids, it's difficult to locate good railroad information about Flint. The area was largely a black hole with regards to rail photographers. Too bad, because there was lots of fascinating activity there. A good source is old Flint Journal articles, accessible via microfilm, sadly not digitized yet.

There was definitely a diamond downtown, and from looking at the aerial it appears there might have been connectors in two quadrants. Heavy pressure from the City of Flint led to GTW and C&O pulling out of downtown. C&O's last revenue trains were in September 1972. The ICC required C&O to upgrade its signals and finish double tracking the beltline first. I've always wanted to pin down exactly when GTW stopped running across Saginaw St., but it's difficult when there's no Flint Journal index for the time. I think it was 1960. It was delayed a year or so until certain adjustments could be made at Bristol Yard and the Graham Rd. bridge-- before then, Chevy Manufacturing was served from the east, out of Belsay Yard.

STB documents, available online indicate that the last rail shipments, gas tanks, from Chevy in the Hole were in Aug. 2000. The gas tank facility was Plant 10, on the east end, where rails are still visible in the ground. The plant remained opened another couple of years, transloading to rail on the old main at Corunna Yard near I-75.

[Steve B]

A few more. The Chevy map comes from "All Things Buick," a great site.

[jimnorthwood]

Holy Toledo, Steve B. That is outstanding material you pulled together. As for pictures of Flint area railroading, they do not seem to exist in abundance. Why weren't more pictures taken? I don't know for sure. But I have a theory, which I will expound upon in the next paragraph. I recall being chased off non-railroad property (and followed) by a GTW police officer when I took a couple of pictures of a (minor) derailment of a westbound train of hi cube boxcars that was just starting to climb the grade at Court Street, after leaving Chevy in the Hole. Derailments, always minor, were not uncommon on this track in later years, probably owing to a combination of bad track and the need to keep the train within a fairly limited speed range, so as to minimize rocking. One engineer made the mistake of not doing so, and the result was that one of the heavy parts racks fell out of the open door of a boxcar and landed in someone's backyard. Fortunately the children who were playing there had been called into the house for lunch a few minutes before the train passed, or it would have been a different, very tragic, story.

Anyway, to my theory. One of my uncles asked me on more than one occasion "why do you waste your time watching trains?" Besides, industrial areas weren't meant to be photographed. And for the vast majority of people who worked in those plants, the last thing they wanted to be reminded of when they weren't working was anything having to do with their work environment. This probably included trains. When I was growing up in Flint, the city had a population of just shy of 200,000. GM employed 80,000+ in Genesee County. This means that when times were good, literally everybody worked in "the shop." So, "leave all reminders of work, at work" probably played a big role in the lack of railroad photography in the area.

I grew up so close to the old GTW main! I so wish I had photographed its trains. Or maybe I just figured it would always be there, since it had always been there. It was quite a sight, and a treat for the ears as well, to see and hear a switch engine pulling a long string of boxcars out of the Flint River Valley, heading up the grade west towards Ballenger Highway. Sometimes they would tack a second switch engine on the rear for good measure. In later years, just before I left the area, I remember seeing the first GP's work that line. How those things stayed on the track is beyond me.

[Steve B]

Those theories sound about right, Jimnorthwood. There are a couple of photos taken around the S. Saginaw GTW depot in a Morning Sun book, and a couple in the C&O Vol. 2 book, and that's about it. I only had one encounter with a GTW cop, and it was a friendly one, at the Pierce Park Golf Course. Perhaps my first memory of a train was looking out the back door and seeing a GTW engine pull one or two boxcars along R.T. Longway to McCloy Paper. I remember exploring that section of the old main after it was abandoned, and pondering the occasional stray telegraph pole, property line marker, battery box, etc. By the time I could drive I drove around "the Hole" a couple times and saw GP38s moving around, but of course didn't even think to bring my camera out.

I'll eventually make some more screenshots of Flint and other Michigan RR-related aerials from the USGS site, but will post them on the history page.

[MQT1223]

Why did Flint force the railroads out of downtown?

[jimnorthwood]

Why did Flint force the railroads out of downtown?

1. For the same reason Plymouth or any city would do so today if it could, ie to rid itself of traffic congestion caused by slow moving trains.
2. A concept that was popular in the 1960's and 1970's. It was called urban renewal. Retail began leaving downtown when first Eastland and then especially a few years later Genesee Valley malls, were opened. This left plenty of empty, older, deteriorating buildings downtown. Some were removed and replaced by parking lots. A big component for the planned revival of downtown was UM-F, which was planning its downtown campus. Its plans didn't include a railroad.
3. Pending/proposed/eventual construction of Interstate 475.

My recollection from a long time ago is that GM was the reason the C&O line through downtown lasted as long as it did, while also being one of the primary drivers behind the construction of I-475.

[chapmaja]

Why did Flint force the railroads out of downtown?

1. For the same reason Plymouth or any city would do so today if it could, ie to rid itself of traffic congestion caused by slow moving trains.
2. A concept that was popular in the 1960's and 1970's. It was called urban renewal. Retail began leaving downtown when first Eastland and then especially a few years later Genesee Valley malls, were opened. This left plenty of empty, older, deteriorating buildings downtown. Some were removed and replaced by parking lots. A big component for the planned revival of downtown was UM-F, which was planning its downtown campus. Its plans didn't include a railroad.
3. Pending/proposed/eventual construction of Interstate 475.

My recollection from a long time ago is that GM was the reason the C&O line through downtown lasted as long as it did, while also being one of the primary drivers behind the construction of I-475.

'
I agree with those ideas completely. Other cities have done similar things. Grand Rapids did so at one time as well. IIRC there were three different lines into "downtown" GR at one time. One came up from the SW, one was the currently in use line, and the third was the line that crossed just north of the current GVSU Eberhard Center (blue bridge). These lines were consolidated into the current alignment as GR's urban renewal project of the 70's and 80's rebuilt the downtown area from an industrial to a service based economy.

The same thing happened in Battle Creek as well, with the lines being consolidated. Flint was a bit different as there were already bypass tracks built prior to the removal of the old mains.

The other driving force behind the removal of these tracks was a change in customer needs. If the customer need remained in its prior form in these cities, the tracks would still be in place. The C&O tracks would still run through Flint if the need to serve customers remained. When the customer level dropped far enough, the communities could make an offer the railroads couldn't refuse. The C&O in Flint was a unique case in that it had a significant short haul, which could be diverted to another track.

I don't know the specifics about times in Flint, but I suspect the building of the yard on the west side of Flint meant it was pretty easy to serve the Chevy in the Hole facility from the west side of town. This meant the yard that was on the east side (Belsey Yard IIRC) was no longer as needed). The trains serving the major Flint Customer (Chevy in the Hole) could do so from the west side of town, allowing the tracks to be removed as needed from the east. Generally this would have been done as customers ceased using service, or a major project developed (I475). From what I've found the GTW on the east side stayed in to serve a paper plant, then when that closed, they were cut back. This happened several times and finally they were cut to where they are now.

The later cutbacks have also been based on customers closing. The west side of the CN main has been cut back as customers closed. What might be sad is that the tracks may never return, and that might be limiting development of the long abandoned properties in Flint. At least with the Buick City site, there are still tracks in place which can be used as a potential incentive to potential purchasers.

The biggest reason is the biggest reason almost everything gets done $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Somewhere, someone figures the need to change the tracks can be accomplished with the right amount of money.

[jimnorthwood]

Good post, chapmaja. You are correct, big picture-wise the winding down of Flint's industrial base was the ultimate reason much of the railroad infrastructure that served it was no longer needed. If you drive down Second Street towards downtown Flint from the west, you may see a large wooden sign (it is easier to see in winter, when the leaves are off the trees, and even then it isn't easy to find unless you know exactly where to look) where the old C&O main crossed Second Street. That sign reads "For Sale by CSX Property." The sign is (or was) white, with blue letters. It has been there for 30+ years. In my opinion that sign describes many of the changes, railroad and otherwise, that have taken place in Flint since the auto industry began its exit starting in the late 1970's. Ironically, the last customer that used this remnant of the old C&O, Dover and Company, is still in business there. Today they install fiberglass garage doors, but when they used to build as well as install wooden garage doors, said wood was delivered via the C&O.

On the east side of the old GTW main along Robert T Longway Blvd, in addition to the GM facilities, there were a few other customers (lumber yard, etc) that could be served from Belsay Yard. On the west end, Chevy in the Hole was the biggie. GTW had their Corunna Road Yard where hi cubes were staged and moved to and from this facility. At the far west end of this line was SPO. I am aware of only two customers on the west end of the old GTW main between the two GM facilities. That isn't to say there weren't others between Linden road and SPO, as I was much less familiar with the far western end of this line. I do know that a lumber yard on the north side of Corunna Road, right where the track crossed, was served. They had room on their small property for one or two boxcars, max. Central Grocery had its warehouse a bit further west, on the south side of Corunna Road. The rail served side of their facility backed up against Corunna Road Yard. My brother used to unload boxcars at CG as his summer college job Later that facility was used for the transshipment of gas tanks. The tanks were manufactured at Chevy in the Hole, trucked the couple of miles to the former CG warehouse, and then trans-loaded into boxcars for shipment. This allowed the track to be abandoned from Ballenger Highway to Chevy. When Chevy stopped all production, Corunna Road Yard was torn up, and the track retreated further west. Etc. SPO or whatever it is called today still gets service, and the last time I was up that way the current end of track was at Linden Road. Steve B. can tell us if that is still the case

[Steve B]

Yes Chapmaja, old Flint Journal articles do say that once expansion of Bristol Yard was finished, Chevy Mfg. would be served from the west rather than from Belsay Yd. On the west half, the tracks went right up to Grand Traverse St. until the end, having been cut back from the Flint River no later than mid-'80s. I remember around 1990 some vandals released brakes on a cut of boxcars attached to a SW1200 by Stevenson St., and the whole thing ran down the track, with the engine slicing halfway across Grand Traverse!

On the east part of the old main, GTW pulled out of downtown in 1975 from what I can gather. The offices on Harrison St. relocated to Bristol Rd. at the same time. There was a short lived piggyback loading facility along Robert T. Longway just north of Sloan Museum, but I think that was closed by '75, and trackage might have been removed all the way to Franklin Ave. at that point. At any rate, MDOT right of way maps available online show that the state recorded its purchase of GTW's right of way from Longway to downtown in May 1975.

McCloy Paper between Vernon Ave. and Franklin received shipments until 1983 or 1984. I have no idea when James Lumber stopped getting service, but it was no later than about 1988, when the track was ripped up between Franklin and just west of Dort. There remained just enough trackage to pull some cars past the wye switch and back into AC, but after 1988 I only remember rusty rails and an occasional odd hopper or two parked west of the Kearsley diamond. The diamond was removed in about 1998. I've often thought that CSX must have been irritated to deal with the diamond when GTW made only a couple movements a year across it, from what I could tell. I don't know what the maintenance or ownership agreement was.

I remember that CSX sale sign, jimnorthwood! I wonder when Central Grocery left and it became the "VENTURE" warehouse. Now it's something else. Yes, "Customer Care & Aftersales" is still served, and they need every bit of that track between Dye and Linden. Two years ago I remember seeing a GP38 drag a bunch of hicubes past Dye so it could back in, and I wondered if it would have enough room! It was exciting to see and a nice hint of the old days in Flint.

[jimnorthwood]

I wonder when Central Grocery left...

CG was part of the Farah-Khouri chain of supermarkets in Flint and environs. I don't know when their warehouse on Corunna Road closed. My brother said working there was by far the best of the several summer college jobs he held. Unloading boxcars was hard work, but it kept in him good shape.

That's a good story you shared about the long train of hi cubes running past Dye Road. A blast from Flint's railroading past, to be sure.

I-475 was constructed piece meal, with the middle, near downtown section coming last if memory serves. That was in the late 1970's. So the 1975 time frame for the GTW exodus from downtown on the east side makes sense.

I was long gone from Flint by 1990, but I remember someone telling me about the runaway boxcars/SW 1200 incident. And do I remember correctly another story about the city getting fed up with GTW's failure to maintain the Stevenson Street crossing (it was practically impassible even when I still lived there), and finally paving over the rails, perhaps more than once, isolating some rolling stock (probably hi cubes) on the east side of the crossing? Was that the incident that eventually resulted in GTW pulling back to west of Stevenson?

I had no idea the old diamond remained in place until that recently. Did those odd hopper cars serve a purpose other than for GTW to park them there to justify they needed the diamond to remain in service for whatever reason? It seems that agreements regarding diamonds are along the lines of whichever line was built first, controls the diamond after the crossing railroad is constructed. In that case I think it would have been the F&PM line. I would have to consult my paper titled "A Brief History of Genesee County Railroads" to be sure, which I wrote when I was a senior at UM-F eons ago. That paper ended up in the UM-F archives, which in those days was located on the first floor of the parking garage on the corner of Harrison and Kearsley. That used to be a branch of the Flint Public Library, but they had security issues (people dropping bowling balls in toilets, etc) so they gave it up and handed it over to UM-F. I worked in that archives when I was going to school there. I wonder whatever happened to the UM-F archives? Whatever happened to it, I'm sure they would have kept my paper, important as it was which I typed on an old manual typewriter with my green parakeet named Buddy sitting on my shoulder.

[TomCat4680]

Thanks for all the info guys. I've lived in the Flint area my whole life so I know where all these places are/were.